THRFM, Teacher Education Radio Austria, das Studierendenradio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich. Herzlich willkommen bei PHTV THRFM live aus dem Studio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich in der Huemmerstraße in Linz. Diese Sendung wird heute teilweise auf Deutsch, teilweise in englischer Sprache stattfinden. Wir haben internationale Gäste. Im sechsten Stock, also genau über uns, ist das New Education Forum zu Gast bei uns an der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich. Und diese Sendung widmet sich dem spannenden Thema, mit dem sich auch diese Tagung oder diese Organisation, glaube ich, beschäftigt. Und vielleicht Andreas Rippel auf der einen Seite, einer meiner Gäste. Und Joanna, was ist dein zweites Name? Bochniasz. Wo kommst du her? Aus Polen, Zentrum für Innovative Bildung. Einer meiner Gäste and Joanna, what is your second name? Bochniarz. Joanna Bochniarz. Where do you come from? From Poland, Center for Innovative Education. Ah, yeah, okay. So we will speak English with Joanna. No, we will all speak English. Let's all speak English. So maybe, Andreas, you can give a brief overview what all this is all about. Yes, okay, I'll try. So actually, I'm the head of e-education Austria, which is an organization that tries to improve the digital skills of teachers, students, and as well as organizations. And 4,000 schools belong to this network in Austria. And this network is located at the Pedagogical University College Upper Austria and so we have a certain issue and we have international partners in this network there is the program which is called Erasmus plus where the EU tries to promote exchange of knowledge and networking. And through this mechanism, we are part of that New Education Forum, which is actually hosted by Joanna and has made many conferences EU-wide. I've been to Brussels before to do some talks related to that. And everything is in the context of new education, new tendencies that you have to try to fulfill, especially with the digitalization. I have to mention our chat GPT, which is a very new development, but how can teachers cope with this digital aspect? But it's not only about digitalization, it's about the teacher role itself and how innovative ways of teaching can be introduced nowadays and yeah that's what we are here for and in three panels we do discussions on just these topics and so far there's been very lively a little controversial but basically I think we all agree on the same findings. Joanna, what is your role in this? Yes, the Center for Innovative Education was created in 2015 and we started the New Education Forum that year. Actually this is where we also invited Andreas Repp to show what Austria has been doing in the manner of supporting teachers, of rather being supporters of the students than transmitters of knowledge. Nowadays you can see that all of us are using smartphones almost every hour to check information that we either forgot or we didn't even have before. So if we are using smartphones on daily basis why shouldn't young people use this when they are learning? So we started working on this and what such changes mean to the role of the teacher. Should teacher stick to the books and the old way of teaching, transmitting knowledge to students, or should we all adapt to this new situation? And now when we had a pandemic, now that we have climate crisis, we have crisis of refugees, a lot of issues that all of us, all of our civilizations have to face, and youth as well, this means that teachers have to concentrate on other issues. We are still dealing with young people who are to enter adulthood and they have many more challenges than we had when we were growing up. So maybe teachers should rather support the growth of young people than concentrate on transmitting knowledge to which all of us have access if we have phone with us. So of course it's not black and white and it's not about teachers forgetting about the subjects they teach but still teachers have much of a bigger role right now and we want to help them to adjust to this new situation. I'm sometimes wondering how do we reach them? Because it seems to me that, maybe it's the case with other areas as well, but school seems to be something which doesn't really like to change? Well, as a matter of fact, your beginning question was on how this conference came to be. And if I go back a couple of years, the reason was that Joanna touched base with the organization I used to work with, which was Cooperative Open Learning. And that was actually a grassrootsroot development so it was about teachers that wanted to change and so there are people around but of course the system itself has a big tradition and also attracts a certain maybe even type of person. And so the question is on how to promote good ideas and try to strengthen them in such a way that within a school organization it will work for more. And I think that's the spirit of a school that each school has developed and if they go towards this path then there is a possibility of development and I see it also in my education network it's not obligatory to be part of it it's totally free to join but if a school decides to join they say okay I will go my first steps in the digital agenda which also then involves, of course, reaching the whole organization and also thinking about new teacher roles. And so it's actually a big step, but it's one that a school takes individually. And of course, what then always the issue is that we need further teacher education. That's where, of course, the pedagogical universities come in that have to support this. But I think it's a good combination of actually a top-down strategy in general of the federal ministry that want to have a society that can cope with this digital agenda in a well way, but also that schools and teachers decide for themselves to a certain degree now maybe the question you're addressing how do you reach the rest and that is a good question but it's actually on the other hand a development of society that we all face and so we all have to deal with it, every teacher in every school. Joanna, before we, I think it was just before the break when I was filming some clips up there, it was before the coffee break as far as I remember. We were on the panel I think and it was kind of this last round where everybody said kind of some closing sentences and you said something very important I don't remember exactly and the person after you I think relativated it a bit yeah but I liked what you said can you say that again we're talking about teachers concentrating so much on the assessments they are required to make and to send the results of these assessments to the school principals. Then principals make their own assessments. Again, they send them to the teaching boards. Teaching boards make their own assessments, send them to the ministries. And we concentrate so much on this part that we forget about the learning, which is why we have schools we have schools for the learning process not so much about the assessments of course we have to know if the learning and does bring results but we are really to concentrate on students because they are the priority so we all need to think and analyze how much bureaucracy we can cut down. And this is what we have seen in the research we have just concluded in five countries. It's all the same. Teachers know that the school is there to support children's growth, to help them in their self-esteem, to help them learn how to cooperate with each other. And curriculum is really the fifth or sixth priority. So the teachers know that. But as I just said, some of them are afraid of digital. We all need to understand that this is a process which we will not stop. Some people in 19th century were breaking down the tracks for the trains because they were hoping that we'll stop using trains and we'll come back to carriages. We cannot stop this process. It's just the same situation. But it was also mentioned today, critical thinking is necessary. It's what we all need to enhance in young people so that they know how to use all these digital tools wisely. Is it fear that slows those processes down? Does it just go back maybe to fear of bureaucracy, of society? I don't know if it's individuals who have this fear or if a society as a whole has a fear that change is dangerous? Well, it's change and nobody wants change all the time. And just stressing the idea of digitalization, let's just think that we would not have this. Let's say there's no digitalization for the past 20 years and we would just want to introduce new ways of teaching. Then of course you would have some people that said we are an interesting idea but what digitalization added is doing at the moment is putting a pressure on the system because now you have to cope with it it's not like let's take a look at it but the whole society is working with it our kids are working with new technology and this means that you have to change to adapt and change is never so easy and I think this is you say fear I think this is something nobody wants too much, too much change all the time. You like to have some sort of security, which is not provided everywhere anymore. And so actually this is the point where we really have to discuss about what this means to teaching to the teachers themselves how they cope with the fact that sometimes it seems that students know more on the digital agenda than they do but in real maybe it's not even the case it's not even the case i think and and we in austria just introduced this model of a new subject that is compulsory, where the base of this model is actually a theory where there's a lot of reflection contained. It's called the Frankfurt Dreieck, which means take a look at technology, but also take a look at how the technology interacts with you and how it interacts with society and this is a great big thing because you really have to start thinking critical thinking of how or what technology does not only how it works and of course this is something where teachers come in they just need to address this this and these questions. But it is everywhere. There was Digital Leben on Radio Austria 1 yesterday. It's always five minutes before five every day. And they had this topic about these new AI systems they developed. What's it called? ChatGTP. That-GDP. CHET-GDP, that's right. And actually, New York, just for now, the city of New York, which I consider to be as one of the liberal places in the United States of America, blocked it from schools. Yeah? Yes, but we were- Because they could cheat with it. But we just have to accept that it will be there. I mean, we're talking about digital world. So one school blocks it, another person comes up and knows how to remove the locks. We have seen this so many times. So what we are discussing and the teachers agreed that it would be very valuable is to let young people use such solution because it will be there it may be the name differently it may be provided from China or whatever it will be there no you don't take the stuff when you have student coming up for with a let's say Kiedy uczestniczył student z połową napisanej poemką o inteligencji artystycznej, była to Shakespearean, jak mówimy, i powinna była wspominać kawałek, lukę i noc. night and the homework is done by IE. We talk with student about why this poem is good, what are the actual formats used, why it's Shakespearean, yes? So the student is engaged in the learning process. So maybe we should really concentrate on the whole process and not maybe we should really concentrate on the whole process and not actually the solution. The same was with the example we had about math. It's about how you come up to the particular solution. That's what's important for the math teacher, for the good math teacher, and not the exact number that the student came up with. So for us it may be a very valuable thing that can enhance our way of learning and it may not be a competition and for sure we cannot get rid of it. For how long can we block it? And I always wonder that actually, I mean, we all know that what we kind of evaluate or what we test in exams, if we test the same thing a year later, it won't be there anymore. We all know that. But still we have a problem with cheating. It needs a different learning, a different learning, a different way of evaluation, a discussion-oriented way of evaluation probably, and then it can work. And so there are even solutions for that, for example, open book format for tests, which means that you have to think about what quiz or test you give, but you let all resources be available. Why not? I mean, it's even more sophisticated. And Kurt Sözer, who is just lecturing upstairs, he showed some things and he also tested the AI of JetGDP. And he said, well, you know, if you take some problems and you ask the right questions, you then also sometimes see the misfunction, where it does not give the very right answers. And I think this is important too, to know what AI is and what it can do, and that it might be biased if it's trained the wrong way related to the data. And this is something which has a great reflection potential that you can also address as a teacher. Will you go to visit the Ars Electronica Center? Yes, I should. You should. They have the piano with the composer. Yes, yes, yes. Very interesting. And also we need to take into account that we have come up with all these digital tools just 10, 20 years ago. And this is full life of the students right now. So the quickest they learn what are the missing points in IE, what is biased, what to be careful of, the better for all of us because this is the world they are living in. Ja, das ist Terra FM, PHTV, live aus dem Studio in der Hohemerstraße. Joanna und Andreas waren im ersten Teil der Sendung zu Gast. Wir spielen ein bisschen Musik. Es ist Musik von deiner Band. Andreas Lieberin. Mit meinem Gitarristen, der jetzt oben auch dabei ist. Wir spielen die passende Musik und dann kommt sozusagen die nächste Runde hier ins Studio. Vielen Dank fürs Dabeisein. Es geht um das New Education Forum, Terra FM, PHTV. Vielen herzlichen Dank. Thank you. guitar solo He'll come on flat up, he come Groovin' up slowly, he got Two, two eyeballs, he's one He comes grooving up slowly He got juju eyeballs He's one holy roller He got head down to his knees Got to be a joker He just do what he please Would it please, yeah He won a shoe sign, he's got Told him football, he's got Monkey finger, he should Coca-Cola, he shoots Coca-Cola He said, I know you, you know me One thing I can tell you is you gotta be free Come together, right now, over me Right now Over me He rolled a coaster, he got anyone And he got muddy water, he won mutual filter, he said one and one and one is free. It's so hard to see Come together Right now Over me Come together Right now Come together, right now. Come together, right now. Come together, right now. Over me. Der Moderator soll nicht das Kabel ausstecken. Herzlich willkommen wieder zurück bei PHTV Terra FM. Wir haben die Studiogäste gewechselt. Es wechselt wieder auf Englisch. Ich glaube, die Alexandra, du sprichst Deutsch. Ich spreche Deutsch, ja. Wer bist du? Sagst du mir das schnell auf Deutsch? Alexandra Schal. Ich arbeite beim Andreas, wie wir vorhin gerade gehört haben, bei e-Education. Sozusagen im vierten Stock. Im vierten Stock. Ja, eigentlich im Haus. Und wir verändern uns auf Englisch. Wahrscheinlich sprechen wir beide Englisch immer. Dann kann Stefano uns verstehen. Wer bist du, Stefano? all the time then that Stefano can understand us. Who are you Stefano? My name is Stefano Cobello, I am a coordinator of a national network of educational institutions in Italy, a public body, and I am responsible for training and European projects in this network. And the broadcast is about the meeting of the new educational forum which takes place just on top of us in the sixth floor which is an European kind of panel organization with the goal of fostering to change the teacher role to include a more digitalization into school life and so on if I understood that correctly hopefully. Yes. Yeah okay Alexandra what do you think about such a meeting which is taking place up there is it actually something on an island which where kind of people meet interested people meet and talk and it stays in here or will there be an impact? Will there be actually a change of the teacher role and the school? I hope so. And I hope that all this new information we got there will be spread by all the participants who are here and taking part in the discussions. are here and taking part in the discussions. And because the participants here are from all of a few countries and in different parts of the educational system and involved in a lot of small but also big parts and projects within these institutions and I think it's our responsibility to spread that. Stefano, I heard when I was filming some clips in between sometimes, so I didn't really have an overview, but I heard something and I heard you with a critical comment I'm not totally sure what it was about but it was a little bit about smartphones I think and what it does to children am I wrong well my just before the coffee break my PhD studies were about sociology of inclusion and behind the digitalization there is a big draw of a future society but from sociological point of view I'm asking to myself which kind of society do we want for the future we want a technological society work society human beings society, marketing society, financial system society. What does it mean society? Education is the pillar of the society. So before asking to a teacher how do you teach and train yourself with digital tools or non-digital tools. You have to think about which future you want to draw for your country and why you have to explain to me why the government, the politicians are under the financial control. Why school has to push and to accelerate so much, especially through the teachers, when we know that it creates alienation and non-inclusion. Inclusion, what does it mean, inclusion, indeed? Inclusion means take care of everyone, from a woman, Muslim, disabled, living in a country with little resources, to a gifted. And that's how we take care. Because educators, it's a mission. It's a service. It's a service believing in a future. What are they doing? What's happening? They are selecting the teacher through multiple choices. Is that really through those teachers that we want the future society? And which society do we want? Second point, why they select the teacher not by competencies but by knowledge. Concourses are made with knowledge and not by mission, behavior, feeling that this is really the pillar of the future. Is that behind a big drawing by financial market that look at education with like a cost ratio value where to invest or not invest money or resources? Is that really thinking that they want to privatize the education if it's possible to privatize? Because privatize competencies and skills is possible, but education, it means how to behave. And look into digitalization. digitalization. Is that anything that help to better behave teenagers and children in the distance learning in digital or is this a passive acquiring some knowledge? But behave means to stay together. When I'm talking with someone I'm respecting someone else time, I'm looking into their eyes because it's important. It gives attention and respect to the person. Is that really happening through digitalization? What you mentioned was not criticism. As a sociologist, I put it on the table, some open question, ethical questions. And there's an ethic of education. There is an ethic even in the financial market. And we should, our government in Europe, everywhere in the world, should think, do we really want the American standard of life in Europe? Or do we want to preserve our tradition, our well-being called welfare? It's quite a slight difference. Do we really want nice people behaving properly for the welfare of the society or do we want people they don't pay attention to anything only to enrich themselves because money is the only value spreading around and but money they don't look at the people people is an object something to spoil do we really want to change no respect for senior people because they're not useful anymore battery exhausted and so don't pay attention to them it's it's another person but how much do they fight and they've been preserving the rights and the values we're living in we have to thank to senior people in this way so my open questions are very very difficult So my open questions are very, very difficult because it's not easy to find an answer. Why? I was working as a journalist for the European Commission and Italian government and a society writing articles about the euro currency. And I believe in Europe to avoid wars. Europe has saved us from having children, women and senior people killed in a war. And I believe that unifying we can really understand each other and living better. But when we'll not have resources to maintain our culture, our identity, our welfare and well-being, because we gave the sovereignty to a private bank. How can we really respect the people, the senior people, the weakest part of society? Look at inclusion. And then go into education. And then, teachers are overwhelmed by bureaucracy. Why? Why we don't want to have teachers being free and able to be tutors, facilitators, and helping the children really to grow up in a proper way. Learning, we call it in pedagogy, metacognitive pedagogy. The passion to learn, to be happy to learn. Instead of having overwhelmed by bureaucracy, demonstrating something that I don't know how much it can be useful to someone, financial market, that the time cost was value for them. And that's to fill up a lot of papers. To say what? Are we human being or not? There is a school nearby and they had a problem with vandalism and the first idea was what can they how can they increase the options of punishment yeah I visited a school near Zurich in in one of the areas of Zurich where really difficult, socially difficult areas. Zurich has some of those areas, yeah? And the head teacher welcomed us with the words, well, we should have all the problems all day all talking about, but we don't have them. And he smiled. Because what they did, they did the other way around. They increased wertschät chat song what's the word in English for their chat song valuing the young people yeah they even give them the key to use the school's infrastructure in the evening vandalism stopped this is great exactly this is pedagogy of including this is better coaching yeah this is great this is not just after running after but this is a very good practice of inclusion. Pay attention to the persons and the origin of the problems. And not to punish. American society is punishing for everything. We are living in another continent, luckily. And we're still resisting to preserve our values as a European continent. But pay attention to this. You said exactly what happened in Assabo. When there is poverty, misery, people without jobs, or illiterate people, or immigrants, they're excluded. You have social problems. And the first thing is, the first idea of some politician is to set them out in prison, outside and so forth. There are some good examples. They try to include that and to give them responsibility. They're asking for responsibility because the main problem is that they don't value anything. And the only value they acquire from mass media and digitalization is how to get money as fast as possible. I'll give you an example. In Italy we have, I don't tell you where, we have a Roma camp. A Roma camp is like not a segregation camp, but they don't go out, they don't socialize, they don't go to school. We had an idea. Why not to take an expert of engine, going there with an open engine and explaining to children how it works, an engine, a car engine, and then take the same expert to a school with the same engine and the children from our camp to make a lesson to the other children about the engine. It was beautiful, incredible, and they loved to go to school because they were protagonists. They were not excluded, included. I give another example. This was for children, male. Because female, they have other passions, other ideas, and they look at society in a different way. Maybe you can say something about that. I know some people who would protest in this. Just very quickly. We took an expert of playing in market share, betting money on the shares, and explaining to Roma Camp, to all the women, they were from senior to young, they were drinking what he was saying and explaining, and then teaching them also the risks and everything there are so many ways to be a teacher and deliver education in every aspect promoting skills behavior you can deliver proper education in respecting others in differences Alexandra are you a teacher I am yeah yeah but not what do you the What do you think? I'm a teacher as well. Yeah. Yeah, but what do you think to what Stefano is saying? I agree, because that's the main goal I foster in my teaching when I'm teaching at the University at the Art University here and on the on our pH and my my background is a theoretical background so I am humanistic and I'm I look at for me it's often hard to think in a practical way. So for me, the most important thing is to talk with teachers about their habitus, about their attitude towards students and what they want. Because we want teachers in any educational field, we want others to be competent in that field, to work with what we want to teach them or what we teach. When I talk with our teachers, I try to open their minds for the concept that if students know the rules of any game, and everything is a game because you have the rules and you have the participants of this or the players. of the participants of this or the players. If you know the rules, you can overcome the rules and be part if you want. And if you don't know the rules, you cannot be part of it. So it's also a question of being part of society, being part of anything. So for me, it's the habitus of the teacher and the game, breaking the rules. Some things on your lips? Yes, of course. You know I have this jacket. This is an Indian jacket. It's a present by my friend from New Delhi. They are teachers like me. And normally it's a jacket they use as a servant. And I'm carrying it with me when I have a conference or a meeting because I think I'm a servant of education. It is humble. It means that I understand the difficulties of education. I would like that our politicians in Europe, in Brussels, in Austria, in Italy, everywhere, they should think which kind of society they want. And then let's train and discuss with the teacher how to create this society. Because the system is accelerating. In the last three years, the system has accelerated like the last 20,000 years and it's improving this acceleration so if we don't ride the horse the crazy horse of acceleration which means technology acceleration and we don't define which kind of future in 20 years, we want thinking about multiplying this acceleration per 20 years, what are we going to do? We are going to be fully controlled and unable to do anything from what comes out from digitalization. Teenagers are smarter and faster than us with digital devices but a last research a big genetic research demonstrated that they lost 80% of IQ because those tools facilitates a lot of things make them faster but they don't have to grow up in the filtering and self evaluation selfvaluation, self-analysis, and also to understand the world, how it is made. They grow up into an individual relationship with the tool, into a global system, but not made by persons, made by images, made by digital, not emotional dimension. That's what you said in the morning. That's what I remembered. Thank you. Because we are made of emotions. And this morning there was a student from probably some Arabic country, and Muslim probably, and she said, I want to go at school my maids because me emotion and relationship is the basic of inclusion digital world doesn't include anything creates a lot of invisible burges from closest reach for internet access tool equipment in some countries if you don't have iPhone, you seem like a beggar. And they don't consider this just a tool. It's just an image of yourself in front of society. In Germany, it's very famous. If you don't have a very big and beautiful car, you seem some coming from a lower class. It doesn't matter the choice you're making. Maybe to save money to help someone else. It doesn't matter the choice you're making, maybe to save money to help someone else. It doesn't matter. You know, this kind of society is going to die continuing in this way. Because it considers what you have as a value and not how you are and behave as a value. We are destroying the planet because it's resources because it gives richness to us and to other little to us maybe to others more but is that the planet alive this earth when they will cut the last three how are we going to breathe what because they will sell the last three because this planet is made of gross domestic production which is defined by a financial market that define the richness of country how much it consumes but resources are ending so what are we going to do which kind of society do we want that's the that's the core question alexandra uh you were speaking about the habitus i think the only way is that habitus changes no is that correct uh kind of yes yeah well correct me if I get it wrong. Because we're getting rather philosophical here. But I'd like to kind of make this connection again to how do we bring it into reality. So if I have a habitus, yeah? You have one. Oh, lots of them. Everybody. But that's another story. There will be my new cinema documentary film about that. That will come out 24. Okay. So, correct me if I'm wrong. I say every habitus has a certain tendency to stay out of security or to feel safe. A habitus also is a security blanket. Is that right or is that wrong? Kind of, yeah. The habitus also depends on the milieu where you come from and what you can manifest and what you can... It creates in your relation to what is around you. Yeah. So what I hear for instance of students, they say well what you teach at the university is bullshit. Because when we come to school, the first thing the teachers tell us, forget what you learned at the university. We show you now how it really works. Well, that doesn't change. I mean, that's probably, if it works that way, we will probably sit here in 10 years and still speak about the same thing, isn't it? Yes and no. I mean, the habitus is not something you can learn at the university, exceptional at the university. But can you change it by being at the university? I think that's a thing which can be available with the right teachers at the university who teach teachers. Because it's affecting you how you were taught. So if you were lucky enough to have a teacher which showed you this empathic way to be the person who guides the other person and you were the lucky one who was guided by someone like that, then I think that's something you always remember and take with you along the way and that's my, like, maybe naive way to think about pedagogy because that's what it should be. Can you say something about university and school and this gap that you clearly identify? Can you explain to me why a person is studying to university and the government is investing a lot of money for university and doesn't recognize the university value? Why? I want to become a teacher. I start to study a humanistic faculty and then I have to make a concourse. Well, this is quite a contradiction. Why? A concourse to assess what? If I already pass all the exams and I have a thesis and so on, why not to connect the university with the school directly and to have service and training evaluation of competencies you can learn all the books of the world but when you're in front of the students if you don't have the right personality that's exactly what a reachable example as a as a teacher. How can you be a teacher? So this is a society contradiction. Well, there is school practice. I mean, students go to schools and learn. I don't think, at least in Austria, the schools do not develop because of that. That's different, for instance, in Norway. I saw in Norway, like the practice school of the University of Oslo learns a lot from the university. I don't think that happens here with our practice schools. I think it's the thing, the students go there, the practice teachers tell them what they should do and that's it. The knowledge is just one way, so they're working together in one way, the students are going there, but it's not coming back. And then habitus doesn't change, maybe that's correct? Something interesting in Spain, for example, when you are, you can be a teacher in Spain, you have two years of evaluation with the tutor and after two years and all the suggestions, the tutor define that this is not really your job. You know a lot, but you don't know how to transfer the learning passion to students, which is the real key strategy. You can't continue to be a teacher. And why? strategy you can't continue to be a teacher and why instead we continue to have you been do you think it's interesting to train teachers that doesn't want to be trained because he thinks only about the chair the job and the position and not about what he's really doing. Can you imagine a society without school, without education, without not only competencies and skills, the internet gives a lot from that. Nowadays you can find a lot of training courses in the internet. I've learned how to program in PHP and internet on YouTube. And I'm very good at making websites because I found a passion for that. But there's something that internet will never give to you, it's the example. And so when a teacher is not properly into his job as a teacher, it's not a good example. It can be the best university students, but it lacks in, we call it competencies to be a teacher. But maybe it's the wrong word. Maybe it's the wrong word, yes. It's the attitude to be a teacher. Yeah, probably that, because competence is a bit overused. It's a very wide meaning. But really, it means that you believe in what you're doing. If you don't believe in it and you love what you're doing, you deliver just boring things. And when you have destroyed the passion for learning in a student, you are killing a part of society and the future of a country. Indeed, in every country. I love Norway. I've been in August in Carmel and I saw open school building both the third chance schools open to everyone to learn so beautiful and that's really beautiful but this is a formal education into informal and informal pedagogy. But it's a very good example. In Italy, we're experimenting now. We're organizing Saturday training courses about bakery for unemployed women, for anyone that want to join for free, to re-motivate them, to reintegrate and reinsert them into the idea of a formal education. And those are unemployed immigrants, most of them are immigrants and illiterate. In this way, they start to ask, but do you have an evening course for that? And when they start to ask, you already found a strategy to create new citizens. found a strategy to create new citizens instead of going and robbing or trying to survive into this kind of crazy society. I mean in the Norwegian society you can actually see the impact of school. Yeah, what you meant before. You can actually see it because and my friend, my Norwegian friend said once to me a sentence which I will never forget she said our society is built on trust yes yes and I don't think I could say that about the Austrian society so much refugees they it's not a question of integration of inclusive refugees refugee it's immediately part of the society with responsibility duty task and everything and I've met even in Belgium I met them I met them refugees coming from with the country with a lower level of education but behaving properly very happy to be there because they felt respected respect yeah respect and this is respect and human value yeah school I think respect is a bit the secret word yeah yes because and when I visit schools in Austria I see it sometimes but unfortunately only sometimes yeah yeah I see a lot of disrespect towards the children or young people. Yes, and that's what I meant by if you're lucky to have someone who has these values as a teacher, respect, and who is for her or himself enlightened by doing so, by doing pedagogy. It doesn't depend on any subject. It's not important. It's more than that. But now we are finally at this point again where we say it's about the individual teacher. And that makes me on the one hand happy and on the other hand unhappy because if it always depends on the individual teacher that's a bit risky and I visited a school in Germany once you might know it Helene lange Schule yes yeah I really like that school it's such a great it's a very good example yeah and I think they managed with a certain school culture to actually develop the individuals. And I remember that one teacher telling me when this new head teacher who changed the school completely, came to the school, that they were all black and they didn't talk to her, just only what they had to for, I think, half a year. Yeah, they were so angry and opposing everything she said. And he was smiling and said, and now she is retiring. And we are only scared that somebody else would come to change what she did. You know? There is a school in Bulgaria called PY, from kindergarten to university in the same school. This is a very good connection. You have to write that down. Yeah, it is very important. And they start from kindergarten to see everything through math. Through math. Everything defined not by name, but math calculation, geometry, everything that is possible. And everyone's got an equation here, which represents name and surname. And of course, the results at the university is incredible. And they live so happily because they got used and they teach to each other in the same school You got wonderful teachers So much aware of what pedagogy in education is. Do you have is there a web address of that school? Can you find you can find the P. Greg is can you can you spell it or maybe our technical staff? I'll get a car. Greg is a Greek symbol Could you show us the website? Is that possible? It's close to Sofia. I don't have... P-Greek. It's P... P-E? No, it's a P. Ah, it's a P? It's a mathematician. But how would they find the website? What is the Greek sign? The symbol is a Greek symbol, but, A symbol. It's a Greek symbol. But you know, it's a mathematic symbol. But the web address has the symbol. I know. I don't know the web address. Maybe. This is the name of the school. Guys, I don't want to stress you. Maybe Stefano can give us some information on that later on when we can put it as a comment. I need to check to find it. For people to find it afterwards. Yeah. OK, by the way, as I'm just talking about the technical team, it's Michael today and Elisabeth and Dietmar who is in the control room. Thank you very much for doing that. It's PHTV TRFM live from the studio in the Hoemerstrasse. It's in English today because we have one guest from another country, from Italy, Stefano and Alexandra is here now. We have five minutes to go so we have to kind of come slowly towards a conclusion of this really really interesting discussion. Alexandra is there something that kind of came to your mind, you would like to say? I, yes, I was thinking that we kind of talk about the same. We all want the same. And I think we should be part of this change and of this new education forum of this role of the teachers and we have to, that what we were talking about, we have to spread that. It's our responsibility to talk with other teachers. Who is we now? Who is we? We here, we in the, we three, we here, we in the New Education Forum, we as teachers, we as scientists and researchers, it's our responsibility. Because for us it's very important, and if something is that important, it's influencing our society, how we want to live then we have to to spread that word but now comes something which makes me scared because I think all human beings have a kind of internal defense against being told what to do this is actually one reason why school doesn't work properly. I want to point out what in in my opinion, doesn't work in school in this moment, indeed. We need to change the role of the teacher. The problem is that in such a digital, globalized dimension to which teenagers and students assess daily, the teacher cannot be the person to provide things he has to be a facilitator in order to be a facilitator as to have a smaller number of students please and not so much bureaucracy and wasting energy and time the energy should be you know serving and dealing and relational aspects in order to be a reachable example that was mentioned above there as well I heard that before the coffee break it was mentioned that bureaucracy is far too much in the education because they need to demonstrate to financial market that is worth thing investing money in education but education is a service yeah it's a pillar of society it's not an investment it's not something you have to measure how much it cost because how much cost ignorance how much cost problem social problems and it's not the job of teachers or educational systems to prove that or to advertise people live. Look in Greece. Look what happened in Greece. 20 millions of people starving. Is that really the society that we want? Think about it. And education. If you want to have that kind of society, destroy education. And you will have it immediately. Because no rules, no respect. Liberism. So I rob, I kill, I do everything that's possible. But is that what we want? One of the pillars of our society is to respect the senior people for what they did for us. And thanks to them, we have what we have. So if you destroy all the values, this is not instruction, this is education. So it becomes a key question how we save Europe, actually. Independence. Yeah. Independence and really rebuilding a system of controlling the financial market and not being controlled by financial market. When you listen some politicians in Brussels, they say the European Parliament doesn't count anything. I'm very scared. The power of European Parliament should be because it's made by all representative of European country should be the highest power and not leaving to a very few people easily as we demonstrated. Influenced let's use a polite word, influenced by someone externally to do everything without any kind of control. And another point, now they want to review the European Treaty. Well, in order to have decision not taken with all the countries. This is a very big question sorry this is we have to remember that i hope we have a little impact with this broadcast next terra fm phdv will be about uh the makerspace which is also a good example i think for education at the pedagogical school of australia with with Anna Gruber and some students as studio guests. Thank you very much for being with us today. Thank you, Stefano. Thank you, Alexandra. Thank you. It was a honor. Thank you, Joanna and Andreas, who are already up again at the new Education Forum. And I hope, I'm looking forward to the impact the new Education Forum will have. I hope that I'm getting old enough to see change in education, to see teacher role changing and thank you for being with us today. Thank you. Vielen Dank.