Welcome everybody. Time is perfect. We are a little bit late, but it's always this floaty moment in which we start. So my name is Davide Bevilacqua and I'm very happy to welcome you here at the design week i'm here with gabriella gaudillo hi and so tonight we have a few conversations about design and we'll go into details uh later but maybe you came here and you were spending a lot of time in the back. So we thought it's a good moment to kind of make this crossover and kind of introduce that so that we see what drag the people here. Right? So maybe, Marianne, do you want to? MARIANNE LEWISOHNSKI- Yeah. Maybe we will start with a grab up of the workshop that just happened. MARIANNE LEWISOHNSKI- Exactly. Welcome, Marianne. So welcome, welcome also from my side. Thank you for being here. So most of you already know, so we had a little workshop. And I'm here with the students from the Visual Communication Department. And this semester, in October, we started to rethink our design process. And we want to extrapolate it to the future. So the students prepared participatory workshops in order to find out about the things about our design practice. And probably each of you want to say one sentence to the project? Yeah, so our workshop is about HTML, basically. We are trying to explore the accessibility and stability of HTML and we are doing it with the most accessible means, so pen and paper and we are trying to show that everybody can help us build a website without coding knowledge. Okay, so our workshop is about mind mapping. It's the main topic in the future. And we wanted to gather an approach of 3D mind mapping and also collaborating mind mapping and see what people think of it and gather all the ideas. So thank you for participating. Our workshop is about archiving. So we invite people to give receipts or cards and then write short sentences and answer some questions we have about those receipts. And then we pretend to tell a story about the things people buy and how they consume and to think about their lifestyle, their habits. Our workshop is about inspiration. So we collect questions and answers from people. It's a cycle of inspiration that never ends. We are more focused about the work. Work could be boring and could be more fun. And we try to collect some insights about how people work and the workspace as well to create an alternative more gamified ways instead of the normal traditional work of rules and methods you all tried. Thank you very much. So if you don't have participated in the last two hours, so there's still some time maybe in the break. Definitely, yes. And well, it's a project also in cooperation with Davide. So Davide and me and also Barbara von Rechbach, we are teaching this course and we are really looking forward until the end of the semester and we will find out where it leads to. Yes, the course, yes, I think it's nice to start with this, because we didn't want to, I didn't want to start with the big introduction and the talks, but because you were seen there and trying that out, and I think that's a bit the spirit of this week. So in cooperation with Kunstuni, and thank you, Marianna Lechner, for coming along and playing also with me and with us and with the students. And thank you for the students, too, to Johnny. And yeah, as you were saying, at around 6.30 maybe, we will have a break after the first section. And there is time to go back in there and try out the tools that the students developed. And they will be also part of the rest of the week anyway. So for them, it's also, I think, a way to study the population of designers around Linz and, I don't know, kind of grasp maybe some community aspects that maybe we don't see and we don't know. So I'm very curious to the outputs of the end of the at the end of the week thank you so you want to go to behind the booths official things I just stay in the front. Yeah. OK. Yeah, so we're starting this design week that sounds like a very official thing, but it tries to be the opposite. So this is why we are calling it like that, right? Exactly, yeah. And well, as some people already asked, some people with attentive eyes to the text that we put on the website, somebody realized that it's written this. This is the second first edition of the Design Week. This is the, it is really the second first because we had the first attempt of Design Week two years ago in 2021, which due to lockdowns and corona we could had to be shifted online but we we got some um and also that was a process that was started within service at and with gabriella here and also with honor there was a lot of discussions that led to the to the beginning of that idea and then last year we thought that was cool but it was online so we decided to make a second round um which is not the second edition but it's also not the first one because things happen there and a lot of the thoughts that form the program of the day these days were developed there so this is the gimmick of the second first edition and a big differentiator of the first and the second edition is that this time we are working with potato pollution as a co-curator of this um fake fake, no. This very real design week. Yeah. And the other thing, the radio format was very important for us. This is why we started online last year, that it was intended to have some audio format. Yeah. audio format. Yeah, I mean, something that is maybe a bit obvious is that we are talking a lot about visual communication and therefore the connection and the partnership with the visual communication department this year, but also before we were thinking how visual communication works and how it functions and how people do it. And then we found very charming not to see, but to talk. So we were, the radio program is something that was very important the first time. And this time also Gabriela continues with that and is prepared the radio program. And this is happening in collaboration with Radio Fro. So every day at five, actually like in half an hour, the first slot will happen and we will all miss it because we are sitting here but but it will be repeated tomorrow at 8 a.m and it will be worth to wake up yeah well we will start the second day of the week you know with the design week with the with the conversation yeah it's okay to skip Monday yeah I mean Monday we don't say why we start on Tuesday right the week okay so cool and what is in the program of the design week yeah so we jump to the program. I can briefly say, this week you will encounter talks, panel discussions, workshops, open mic sessions, and the radio show that will happen from now till Sunday. So also the program is like balanced differently according of the days. And in the weekend, there's a lot happening. There's also two party opportunities. So I think, yeah, you can choose whatever you prefer. And for the workshops, it's good to pre-register because sometimes there's a limited amount of places. Perfect, yes. there is a limited amount of places perfect yes so um we wanted to give space first of all to the people who can help us and are helping us in the realization of all of this because now we are standing here behind a million of microphones and cameras and technical things but it's not only me and only gabby who is pulling this out and also mariana is here but we have a whole amount of people who are helping um and so we start with the obvious ones uh like with potato publishings which is the the corporation partner that is not yet here because they are working so they will join us for the second part of today potato publishing is an initiative it's a young initiative they do printing they do the research printing and experimental publishing and they are located in the she seller the she sale is also an initiative that we thanks a lot because they are hosting us for the rest of the week and we have yeah and then well I continue with this with this institutionals so there is how do fraud that we just mentioned that it's helping us for the for the for the region the dot tv is uh the place where all these discussions of today will be uh to be seen uh they will be uploaded the recordings there and they also help help out all the time with borrowing cameras and contributing to distribute the informations we say thanks to AFO and Willifred and to Memphis to help us with the hosting of the wonderful guests of this week. And of course we thanks the Servus AT official sponsor Linthage, thank you, for supporting us in our activities and the fundings that allows us to create this week and to keep it accessible for everybody. The workshops are for free. We want to also give the opportunity to learn something so the entry level is really, really low, zero. Just send an email to register to the workshop um and yeah and then we are supported by from the ministry bundeskanzleramt pmcurs city of linz lands of london and a series of special fundings from the city that supports us uh lindsey pools and lind import a lot of people supporting this idea maybe we should make it more um official um yeah so and of course the one of the the i wanted to call here andrea please sorry okay is this the right moment okay yes yeah go yes it's funny because i never thought that i will be represent a represent of an institution so yeah so on behalf of time-based media department i'm really happy to welcome everybody to the second first edition of the design week and yeah time-based media has had already a long-term and still ongoing collaboration with servus if i'm not wrong since 2008 i did my homeworks and um yeah and we are really pleased we are very pleased to continuously support their initiatives, your initiatives, cities also today. So, I hate microphones, sorry. And I'm a sound artist. Yeah, so yes, I think it's very important to encourage and engage into independent design practices, into self-publishing, into various and explorative printing techniques, and as well as open source programs. And you are welcome to an event, or as you described it in your description a gathering that i really liked and a place for sharing and also communal participation and yeah that offers explorative and experimental and also inclusive perspectives on design so thank you for organizing. Thank you for being here. And I hope you're going to enjoy. I know the program seems dense and diverse, but it's very appealing and relevant, in my opinion. Enjoy. Oh, wow. Thank you. Thank you, Andrea. Wow. So thank you, Andrea, for presenting better than us the design with this. Definitely. Yeah. So Time time-based media is supporting ServoCity and the Art Myth Radical Openness Festival is actually co-found has been co-founding that and helping it trans become what it is now and then this is a really huge help and also Christoph Nebel was always very cooperative in the beginning of this process for this project, also bringing along Tina Frank and Marianne Leschner and the Viscom and many other students and the whole Institute of Media. So I think it's really cool to have such a support. People now, no? Very important. Yes. people now very important yes why we are here is thanks to a team behind that has been working in the last months um i would mention juan linares for the design and that was developed in collaboration with popu emilia leon too yes lina polido barragan a big list of cooks felix family berlinger federico pony rasier gazzal hanif fahy and in the technical team jacomo piazziiazzi, Antonio Zingaro, Vincent Slant, and taking pictures, Sabina Piñeros, which, Sabina, where are you? If you can stand, okay, she's dressed in red. I'm sorry to point this out, but if you feel like you don't want to appear in the pictures, please let us know you can tell me directly or sabina and because we will be documenting the event in general also the other days and yeah um last but not least the sound design of the radio show was made by by Florin Mugel. Cool. That's it. Thank you for being here. Thank you for coming. And goodbye. It's over. It's over now. OK, so what happens this week? You were saying before. That's done. Check the program online on the beautiful website. And so today we had this workshop at the beginning of the afternoon. And then you have the chance to try it again in the break, which is at this point, I don't know, after the first slot. Today we have two sections from now, two bundles of talks. So we have three contributions. One is from Carlo Milaniani who is joining us online. You will see them on this screen. And he's going to talk about convivial technologies. We have a second presentation from Honor Olgac who sits there in the front about Emancipation 101 for Designers. Can design be apolitical and we have also helena schmidt presenting a project the digital digital uh oops the digital didactics platform for um for funding tools so the talk is called finding tools and this is the first slot so the speakers will be we will introduce them again but the idea is to have three short contributions like 15 to 20 minutes we try to compress them and then have a bit of space for discussion so you will be very welcome to grab a mic and ask a question or bring up also maybe your practice as a designer into the discussion. And yeah, after that we take a break so you can try again the exploring into the open from the Viscom students. And then we will continue with three will continue with another bundle of presentations. The first one is from Josef Kniezinger and Simon Repp. Josef is online, could not join, but he's also going to be here. And then Simon is, you cannot say IRL, but is in 3D here. And they are going to talk about, their talk is entitled after a quote that they pose as a question. So to change the rules, shall we change the tools? Following that, there is Lucille Hout. I hope I say your surname OK. It will be OK. Thank you. Who is going to present a talk about using web tools for print graphic design. This is connected also to the workshop that Lucille will do tomorrow and the day after tomorrow in the. Please register. I think there will be a bit of spoiler of what's going on in the in the tiny bit of advertisement in the workshop so listen and join it's really cool and finally we have online silvio russo with his uh well he's actually one of the first book presentations that he's going to do in this season, he just published a book, What Design Can't Do, on design and disillusion. We have a few copies there. If you feel very enthusiastic about the talk or very delusional after the talk, you can get one. And yes, it will be online. And the second part, there will be also another discussion after the presentations so we we thought to start with this top with this with his presentation um after reading a book that carlo wrote called convenient technologies and which we found very very inspiring and it's about the relation that we have with digital tools. Like also in general, not necessarily designing tools, but in general, all the digital layers that surround us and about all the dependencies that they generate in how we behave in the world, how we move, we perceive, and store archived information, and manage everything around us. And it was a pleasure to have a conversation with Carlo, and who is also working in the institution, working in different universities and schools. So definitely has a lot to say in the world of education, but also comes from, let's say, the critical art practices, and he was collaborating under the heteronym Hippolyta, from Italy, a very powerful name who produced very nice publications over the last many years, now is working with CHIRCE which is the International Research Center for Electric Conviviality. I'm sure Carlo will tell us a bit about that. And they deal a lot with hacker pedagogy which is a nice concept that also comes from the Convivial Technologies book. I continue presenting Carlo's work. Carlo was also suggested as a speaker from Enisa, who is another participant of the CIRCE, who also participated a few years ago in some activities from CIRCE. And it's something that i really like when this community effect comes up when you're having a conversation with somebody you discuss with them and then for some reasons then there is a name in the room and this this somehow allows us to have a person with us that still not listening to us, or maybe yes? Yes? Hi, Carlo. Yes. Great. Ciao. I have been introducing you for 20 minutes, so they know everything. Sorry. Sorry. No, no, no. That's perfect. OK, so thanks for being here. And there is a pad there. That's your pad, perfect. Okay, so I just give you the mic and after 20 minutes we cut the cables. So looking forward to hear what you have to say. Thank you. What is about my book is Polyvian Technologies. It comes from the image, the reference to the image, tools for polyvianity, but is a little bit an update of this idea. And I, as I put here, to be very simple, is the answer to justify the means is a Machiavelli center and the Malatesta one is a means needs to be adequate to end so if you want to be to have something ki so dobro za svojo sredstvo in za drugih, ki so na vašem okolju. To je treba, ker je to tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi tudi t Torej, kako smo vsega vzpravljali, moramo ustvarjati naše vzpravljanja. This is an example of what we think is a convenient tool, the pad, because everyone can join without a login, a password, etc. So it's a flat hierarchy. I put another example, the blog is a tool we are developing, our answer to social media delirium and it's a social media that is based on RSS feed. Vulgo è un altro esempio che abbiamo codificato, abbiamo il link. L'idea è, praticamente, di evitare la complessità nel design del sito web e di mettere esattamente ciò che hai in un libro in un sito web. Quindi avete un libro e lo trasformate in un sito web. Questo è un esempio del mio libro. E avete anche un altro esempio, il pad del libro di Agnese. Questo è questa. Il punto che voglio stressare è questa immagine per rappresentarla. Questo è un a sign in italy Facebook, Telegram, Whatsapp in modo male, diventi un debole. Se li usi in modo buono, diventi un angelo. Non ci siamo d'accordo. To je to, kar znamo, da so njimi vse težave. Tudi zame, da so njer so vse tega predstavljene. Tudi ideje, ki so vsega vzpomagane, ki so vsega predstavljene. To zame zame zame zame zame zame zame zame zame. Ne lahko počnemo, da vsega stvarja, ki ga lahko počnemo, We cannot do like every tool is okay for doing whatever. Every tool has a specific attitude that can be useful or not, and can push and do push us as humans in a direction or another. di noi umani in una direzione o in un'altra. Quindi se prendi un smartphone non è a te come usarlo, perché non puoi usarlo se non hai un tamburo, ad esempio. Sì, puoi parlare, c'è un'interazione, ma in base a questo, un smartphone ha bisogno di avere un tamburo sul tuo corpo, un tamburo come questo, e di poter vedere e avere una reazione sul tuo cervello. Quindi, non puoi usare un smartphone per fare una cosa, smartphone to to name like an ahana you use it once and then you you throw it away and you cannot use an ahana to to have some spaghetti to sip a tea you need a cup to sip a tea so tools are not all the same and we need tools that are adequate for our needs or better even better Quindi le tecniche non sono tutte le stesse e noi dobbiamo utilizzare tecniche che sono adeguate ai nostri obiettivi o meglio, anche meglio, le tecniche devono giustificare i nostri obiettivi. much time because the the the tech is going to also direct some option um okay um so the point the main point And just to finish it, is that nowadays we are in a world in which tools are really pushing us towards the continuous production of content and those content are completely, doesn't non importa perché i social media non sono interessati al nostro contenuto a meno che facciamo una conferma, ecc. ma ok, se hai 1000 foto su Instagram non le importa non importa il contenuto, ma il che si sono collegati ai social media. Quindi se volete approfondire questo tema dei social media toxici, suggerisco la serie We use it in our trainings to show that the fact that people are addicted, we are addicted to social media is not by chance. It does not depend upon the fact that we are not able to deal with this or that tool, but it depends mainly on the fact that these tools are made to be toxic. can make a self-defense but what we really like to propose is not to defend ourselves but to deal with the tools as hackers in a funny way in a joyous way playing with this and this is not easy Questo non è un TV, questo significa che dobbiamo fare un esercito collettivo, non solo una scelta personale, e il fatto che noi proviamo, che noi abbiamo provato a farlo, come usando Video Ninja invece di Google Meet, è unona maniera di andare ovviamente il rapporto è importante e ci siamo tutti, nessuno di noi non è importante, tutti possono fare la differenza e fanno fare la differenza because every choice is important and um yeah that's uh my i can go um i can go on for hours but i think i can stop here and how do you want to become a hacker okay by Kako se počuti haker? Ok, če spremljaš čas s drugimi vzorečnih hakerji. To bi rekel Leven Beš, ampak to je... But hacking has nothing to do with computers. Yes, it has to do, but it's not only computer. I mean that you can be a hacker of doing, of bicycle, hacker of keys, does not mean that you have to do only with the computer or something. But hacking is a way of living, an attitude. The important thing is that in our opinion, hackers are not people that are mercenaries of soldiers with an army against someone or something. It has to do with the attitude of being curious, the attitude of how it works, how it works the world around us, how the machine works, how we work with machines, come funziona questa macchina, come lavoriamo con le macchine, perché non è lo stesso lavorare con una grande azienda, come Google, Facebook, o qualiasi cosa che voglia, o di lavorare con organizzazioni legali, con persone che si possono parlare con, che non si possono parlare e che possono fornire una macchina, un sito web, una struttura per fare qualcosa insieme. Convivial significa, che viene dal latino, significa un banchetto insieme. Se vuoi creare un banchetto, bisogna che tutti facciano qualcosa. Posso portare qualcosa da bere, posso portare qualcosa per mangiare, ma abbiamo bisogno di un'organizzazione, perché se tutti portano qualcosa per mangiare e nessuno porta qualcosa per mangiare, The organization is the basic of a conviviality. You cannot do it automatically. Machine cannot automatically give you the freedom and the good organization, but machines and tools are companion, could be companion, like Donna expressed about the companion species. Also, we think that tools can be companion, e non stessi per compiere le spese. Anche se pensiamo che le strutture possono essere contenute e potrebbero evitare le tecnologie. Questo non è facile, ma è un tool è qualcosa che puoi portare, puoi portare un tool, come un hammer è un tool. La tecnologia è qualcosa di più complesso, la tecnologia is something that internet, I mean, web is a technology, or the infinite scroll is a technology. It's the realization of an idea that is embodied in many tools, let's say. And you cannot really distinguish the tool from the user because a hammer is completely separated from the user you can put it there but you cannot separate the internet from the user internet means as a sense as a meaning is meaningful only if you are users is meaningful only if you are users of the tool. So that is a technicality. Do I have to go on with the questions? Yeah I think we have thanks for the input. Can you hear me, Carlo? Yes. Okay, cool. Super. So thanks for the input and I think we'll go back with the other question in the after part. We continue maybe in the discussion. Maybe we open it up to the other do svojih govorilcih. Hvala za prvo predstavljanje v razgovarih, kot je neutralnost. Ja. Najlepša stvar, ker sem govoril o mi, ker smo tudi v družini, ne v kolektiv, ampak v družino, ki je Čilče. Zato ga uspevim, ker so veliko ljudi, is a new affinity group which is church and that's why i'm using we because there are many people that are wanting to take this convenient technology thank you thank you uh thanks um i think those are very interesting concepts that will probably emerge over and over in the other presentations as well but thanks for laying them down at the first as the first speaker is always difficult to open the stage so your presentation is entitled emancipation 101 for designers can design be apolitical non-political or it's not the same apolitical or non-political, but yeah, can design be apolitical? And it, Honor is a system architect, a lecturer, so it also has a deep insight on digital tools and digital technologies, not only as an end user, but also as a person who takes care of that. He's also teaching here at the Interface Cultures Department and is teaching in Vienna in the program Human Rights in the Digital Age. So I think this connects a lot of the, some of the topics that Carlo was laying down before, like the fact of surveillance and the ways that we are connected and dependent on digital tools. But I guess, I hope, I'm sure, will be shifted towards the actual relation that the designer has with their tools and how this, I will sure, will be shifted towards the actual relation that the designer has with their tools and how this, I will say, collaboration between designer as a physical entity and a digital tool as a technical entity merge together and how this can be maybe challenged. But yeah, his talk is also about not only the designer and the technologies, but also the wider context in which we do things. So I just named things like industry or standards, something that don't necessarily come from our side, from my proper decision, but also connect to a wider network of all the other designers. I hope I don't have to continue, otherwise. I mean, I'm sure you will have much more to say still. But I don't want to burn any surprises. Can I say something? There is a, yes, Gabi. That maybe everyone knows, but I didn't, that the path that we are using is path riseup.net. Yes. Because in case you are used to servus. That's good. That's a good point. And it's called just dsign. With capital D. Capital D sign. Without the asterisk? No, there is like the asterisk. Just D sign. Yeah. D capital. Yeah, asterisk is a special character we discovered. So when we had our folders in the cloud with the asterisk, it broke sometimes the the system of um of design for example that also one was using for uh the actual design of the of the website for this for this week and i think we forgot to mention to say thanks to a person which I say now which is a million to you mention it okay I say I say thank you also especially to a million to which I don't see at the moment and because I cannot is also I cannot with the hosting of the guests and making sure that everybody has a good time and taking care of the of the books the most important things thank you thank you thank you david it's going to be a difficult follow-up after the carlos talk and david's introduction um let's see how i do oh i i don't know how that got there i'm sorry Let's see how I do. Oh, I don't know how that got there. I'm sorry. This is awkward. Sorry. Welcome to Emancipation 101 for Designers. I'm Onur Olgac. I will mention myself a little bit more later. But today we'll be poking at the question if design can be apolitical. I think we had a small spoiler with Carlos' talk there, but maybe further in the discussion we can talk about it more. I want to talk about specific distinctions on certain terminology around technology that we kind of like freely use as technologists or people who are advocates in in technology within political contexts but it's not really very clearly defined you might have heard inkscape or GIMP but you there are just certain things that are that need to be uncovered for the average end user. And, well, in terms of tools that are not neutral, of course, most tools that we use today are not neutral. They can be, because it's not a fair comparison to compare web technology to an axe or a fork, but you can consider them to be designed with neutrality in mind, and that's very different than what we generally end up using today as technology. So short Who Am I is just to show that I have a different background coming from technology as well as the artistic field then coming back into the tech field with a very charged political and artistic interest going into free and open source software and i work with these technologies and i work since i'm very very small as a tech support for friends and family, in general, like I have this context of the end user's perspective into this. And as a creative person trying to create with different tools. So all of this is just to build the basis of that. And for the very charged word of emancipation, which when I looked up the definition it wasn't very helpful because it just said the act of process of emancipating. And I thanked my search engine and went to look for what emancipating means, and that is to free from restraint, control, or the power of another. So this charged political context is because we actually are missing this understanding and perspective looking into the technologies that we are using most of the time. Today we're talking mostly about the designer's perspective maybe, most of the time. Today we're talking mostly about the designer's perspective maybe, but this is in general for technology very prominent that we are building up a lot of dependencies around our use in our daily lives, including, well not just our daily lives, this also bleeds into the professional lives, especially when you think about the way that we are locked into certain software or hardware when it comes to what we want to do in life. And, well, these dependencies that are built around this kind of create this battlefield for the end user. It's a battlefield because you have to fight every single day against this technology. The technology doesn't work with you. You find a way to make it work for you or you find your own way to make sure that it doesn't really break on you, just like it was when I was connecting my computer. And unfortunately it's not a fair fight. As the end user, you don't really have the means to... It's not on the same field. We're on the receiving end of this and we are accepting everything, clicking the accept button in order to use all of these things. Where while we are in this world where we have data as a commodity that is being sold, so we have a lot of valuable things that we carry around with us that are connected, like interconnected everywhere. And we have what is called vendor lock-in. If you haven't heard of it before, it's a certain paradigm that would make sure that you are locked into a certain vendor in order to make sure that you are a constant customer and you are down the line once you start using it. We have very good examples. I'm sure some of it is already popping into your head if you are involved in design in one way or another, but these are kind of like building vicious cycles where what we end up feeding is a lot of money and power into big corporations and their shareholders in the way that they would like to make money and when when i'm talking about technology or technical products that we use uh i don't mean only devices not just the smartphones or the or the laptops that we use but it's also the the software technology that we depend on that is every single day it's getting more and more difficult to actually have it disconnected from the internet or the other networks and these this would be a good segue into the conversation around software as a service and this is one of the distinctions that I'd like to kind of underline. Software as a service is a kind of, it's a development and deployment model for software. It's a very technical term, but what it basically means is that we receive the software, we interact with the software within the means as it is a service, not that it is software that we run ourselves. Good examples of these are anything that you can imagine that you have to sign in or log into, even if it's running on your computer in order to activate the license, where you don't really have the data in your computer, but it's out there in the cloud. And all of these things that are basically abstracted away. So it's not on your computer anymore. It's not on any of your device stacks, hardware or software. It just runs in its own tab in the browser, and you don't really have any access to it outside of the network or the username password that you have. And this is actually just a flavor of what we call proprietary software. So proprietary systems depend on a lot of licensing and they are designed around protecting intellectual property. So it's about ownership and restrictions surrounding this private equity. When we use proprietary software, we are basically licensing. So we pay to access this software, but we don't actually own this software. This is the important thing, so this is the larger encapsulating category that you can consider that also includes software as a service. If software is delivered to you as a service, it is proprietary, you have no right other than the licensing terms and agreements that is ten pages long legal wording that none of us actually understand and the there is also together with this proprietary terminology there's also this other techniques that are being used in order to make sure that this is enforced. So since the earlier days of actually getting software delivered in CDs and then using serial numbers to activate them and then copying malicious executables in order to run them. Now what we do is we link them to our accounts and we sign in in order to show that we are authorized, genuine person who paid to use the software. So, and this is not the only type, but what is called DRM is a digital rights management This is a category of tools that make sure that certain software run on certain platforms and that you are locked into it Imagine any sort of software that you need to use you don't really have an interchangeable way in most cases you can't even run it on a different operating system let alone take it and just use it offline and together with DRM you have the restrictions that come with the copyright, the limited distribution most of the time you you're not allowed to redistribute this content as well as the EULA's end user license agreements and terms of services that bring all of this restriction. On the other hand, there is open and free approaches to software and technology in general. This has again to do with the same principles of distribution, access, and a fair way of approaching software and the technology itself as well as its use. And when we're talking about free, in most cases we think about this very outdated understanding of the aesthetics of these alternatives. So when you think about an open source software, you usually have this very old idea of something that kind of barely works, looks very ugly, it's difficult to navigate through, there's a lot of bugs in it, and in most cases it's not a drop-in replacement for your favorite tool. And that is correct. None of these should be considered drop-in replacements, because the workflows that come with these proprietary software that we are used to is actually a very... Just a second. No. Yes. So let's take Adobe as the most obvious selection for any designer. To have this industry standard based thing for yourself to when you are out there after you graduate to find a job, to be accepted, you need this skill set in your portfolio in your CV therefore your educational system starts integrating it and when you are a student you do get a discount it is a different pricing model and in most cases hopefully your department or your university or your high school already pays for a license so you get to learn about it but this kind of is what I talk when when I talk about vendor lock-in this is what I mean that this kind of lobbying that they the Adobe people together with the industry and the educational system do is that they make sure that this cycle doesn't break so you are locked into Adobe so when Adobe decided to switch from the paying model to a subscription model, you don't really have an alternative. You don't really have an option to pick. It's not really given to you. And that's what I mean by it's not a fair fight when it comes to these situations for the end user, because you don't really have any say in the conversation. This is their intellectual property. This is their software that they developed that they market with billions of dollars of marketing budgets, as well as research and development budgets, that is very difficult to kind of compete with. And if you add on top of that the fact that you come out of high school, university already knowing these tools, and you're looking for places that would hire using these tools, you're just going into the same vicious circle. And this kind of is very difficult to break. And that builds a specific workflow. You take those tools and you build your workflows around this. So, of course, when you have a tool that replaces a certain functionality of that workflow, when you have a tool that replaces a certain functionality of that workflow, it's not very easy to just drag and drop another tool and expect it to work because it's just a completely different work. Literally, it's just a different flow of mind. It's a different way of thinking, and it's a different way of working. So if we have these alternatives that don't really look very beautiful, what is the approach? What is an acceptable approach for us to understand, especially for people who have visual aesthetics in mind when they want to work, that you don't really want to work with an ugly program. I'm happy to say that that is kind of an outdated stereotype around open source software. Open source software as well as Linux, which I'm going to get into now, have come a long way from their early moments of kind of being very alpha, beta level software that is very buggy, that doesn't really work very well, that looks very ugly. Things are developing, but if you compare who's behind these tools and who are developing these technologies versus the amounts of money that is being thrown onto the alternative, both for its survival in the marketplace as well as the technology itself, it's very difficult to compete with that proprietary level of thing. It's good to have this in the back of your mind when you're looking at alternatives if you are already considering to find an alternative for one reason or the other because these tools don't have the same amount of people or the same amount of money behind them. But they do have a very good history behind them. So when usually we talk about Linux or when it's mentioned it's usually mentioned interchangeably as the operating system. In reality this is a very technical specific thing but Linux is the kernel. What the kernel is is what makes your computer's hardware be able to speak to everything that's in the software level. So what allows your computer's very powerful silicon microchips to do the computations that you want with the user interfaces that you're using is the Linux kernel. It's the core of the operating system. And what you can see here is this very small section of a huge tree that won't open when I click. I can go like this. Yes. So there's this huge tree where you can see all of these distributions that are basically branching out from each other. And each one of these are what are called distributions in the Linux land, let's say. They're actually each one of them a unique operating system. They are based off of the same technology, the same core of the Linux kernel, but what you can see here is a high level of diversity when it comes to decisions. Each one of these operating systems were decided with specific preferences in mind, with specific use cases in mind, and what is allowed, what is allowing this to happen is the open source nature of the Linux kernel. This is completely different than the regular operating systems not to be mentioned here today. And because they have this open source mindset in mind, they allow certain, this starts as the core. So like the Linux kernel is the core of the operating system and you start with a core that is open, that is supposed to be allowing this sort of change to be made and redistribution without any legal consequences, without any blockage, it's actually encouraged. But here, I've already said proprietary, free, open source licenses and freedom. So it's getting a bit complicated. Basically, with open source, what I mean is the source code to be available for anyone and everyone to be able to see which means that anyone who wants to see what this software is doing can do it easily it's like opening the blueprints to how anything mechanical would be working just because this is not an intellectual property that is to us intellectual property that is not fixated on, wait I lost my train of thought, blueprints, yes. So, okay, open source. Let's go back to the Venn diagram. So you have free, open source, and proprietary. You can see here in the intersection, so these things can exist coexist at the same time these are not completely mutually exclusive concepts you can have an open source software that you are supposed to pay you can have a free software that is proprietary because the definition of freedom now also has splits into two you can have proprietary software that has open source sections of it you can have open source software that has Proprietary sections in it so all of these things can coexist at the same time the principle is about where the ethical boundaries are of each project and how they start with the core and then boundaries are of each project and how they start with the core and then how how that that's the second time how that continues going further down the project so if you build on an open core that has this encouraging attitude towards changing it re rebuilding it and making it your own then everything else that's built on top of that follows the same rhythm. And when we talk about freedom, this is my last distinction. I won't go into more definitions, I promise. So when we're talking about freedom, you might have heard from technical people or open source people the phrase, free as in free speech, not as in free beer. This distinction is about the freedom of well one is about freedom and the other one is about paying for something licenses are what govern open source and free software these are used interchangeably there's another distinction there that is another hour long talk but when we talk about these freedoms and freeness of software these are the parts where they set a certain tone when it goes into the further down the process so if we come back to the question of design and design tools and if these can be apolitical, it's very difficult to remain apolitical when every single piece of software or every single tool that we use are charged. So no matter what the outcome of that poster that you made is, no matter how neutral or left-leaning or right-leaning that poster was, there is a whole long phrase, a long tale of that journey for that poster to be generated, where you made a lot of decisions and you've affected the economical and political system by making those decisions. the economical and political system by making those decisions and in the end that those decisions those tools contribute to something so I would argue that no step of this process can be apolitical much like many things in our life and thank you for your The next work is from Helen Schmidt who is here representing a wider group of people who developed a project called Digital Didactics in Art Education, I would say D-DAI or something, Did I? I'm sure you will show us the screen. Which is actually a bit like maybe a follow up on what Honor just presented. So after all of this, how can we go to and choose our tools to work, right? So Didai is a platform that collects several tools and describes several tools and way of doing things it is presenting also various approaches and it is developed as with a thought on digital didactics so something for teachers and for teachers trainers as well and it's a project that involves many many people which is the best quality of such community projects in a way or some such open source projects helena is an art scholar and an art mediator and is working as a postdoc in the academy of finance in vienna i i'm very happy that that you are here. I also presented the rest of the group because I remember very well the lecture that you gave at the Linz FMF Festival in 2019, which was about the poor image. And yeah, it was a very, very good explanation what poor image is. And I'm very glad that you now are also dealing with tools. And that's it. Looking forward to hear your presentation. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was some time ago. I'm lucky I finished a PhD by that point. So thank you. I'm going to talk about a project, so about a project that not only i was working on but many people i will come to that and the project is about past current and future work in connection with digital tools and their use in art educational practice so the aim was to meet the desire of many teachers to implement digital content and tools in their art lessons. As we all know, the topic of digitality in terms of content and methods is still new and sometimes intimidating for many people in schools, in everyday life, as well in higher education. So from lack of digital infrastructure to AI-generated work, there are many topics that can be challenged teachers, but not only teachers. So I will be talking about this platform. It's called pdae.eu. It stands for digital didactics in art education. It's a platform for open educational resources in form of digital tools and teaching ideas for artistic work, art education, design education, design and so on. So on this website we call the mobile apps, browser-based and desktop apps tools and the teaching concepts ideas. So here's a short overview of my presentation today. First I'm going gonna introduce the platform. So the platform is the result of a two year Erasmus Plus project involving the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna as a project leader, the Bern University of the Arts, the Moholy-Nagy University in Budapest, the University of Cologne, and the Willem de Kooning Academy in Rotterdam. Due to the countries, the site is available in four languages that you don't see very often together in one website, as you might have seen here. And the project was born out of the emerging need during the COVID-19 pandemic to provide more high-quality teaching resources for higher-end school education with the aim of enabling the most equal participation possible. So the project took place from 2021 to 23. It was just presented in January. And yeah, as I said, I worked on this project in several lectures, but together with many people, with my colleagues Sophie Link and Franziska Turner from the Academy of Fine Arts. So the following presentation contains also partly their writing. So all of the materials on the platform are open educational resources, which means free learning and teaching materials that are in the public domain or published under an open license. So OERs, as you know, know i guess respect the author's intellectual property rights while allowing to others to use to remix to adapt to share and to redistribute existing material here you just see an example of how this looks like on our website so i'm working with screenshots here feel free to check it out on your phones um okay so tools um at the beginning of the pandemic a lot at least in education suddenly had to be done remotely from home on a private device so private space you might remember had to be created within the private homes that was often shared with many other people in order to participate in classes or to teach and that was not equally easy to everyone so at first hardware had to be available in order to participate in digital meetings or to receive edit and send learning assignments and then there's the software we've heard a lot about that today teachers and students some did not even have an email address before were confronted with the task of learning different tools within a very short amount of time. Some of these tools were given to them and many of those tools had never been used before. New skills and new literacies were required and had to be established within a very, very short time period. And this was also very, very true for art lessons and also for art academies. And to collectively make the situation easier, all kinds of lists appeared. Maybe you remember on the internet where colleagues, peers and also unknown people on the internet started to collect and exchange and to share tools that they had assembled and assembled and tested over the years to make digital art and teaching possible so those lists were shared posted and edited collectively i have just two examples here maybe you've seen one of those like the one on the left is a shared doc of a teacher that kept growing and growing. And the one on the right is the website by Franziska Turner, by my colleague, maybe some of you here in Linz know her. And she had been collecting digital tools for her teaching at universities over many, many years. So in the course of this new remote teaching situation, there were many problems that had to be solved, but also possibilities. For example, as I mentioned, digital skills and digital visual literacies in many places were not at the level they should be at or they could be at. So how to use software, how to start group calls, how to search for images. And then tasks had also be, they also had to be adapted to the conditions in the private homes. And for teaching, very interesting was, it was very important to try not to discriminate anyone. So many people didn't have the height or the software they needed. It was important not to force students to show private indoor spaces and also considering students who were not able to use a camera because of private situations, because of their family's Wi-Fi plan, and so on and so on. And also many pupils and students said they were more comfortable working with apps than with a desktop computer or hadn't even used a computer ever. So we heard that a lot and this reminded us of a commercial from 2017, maybe you know it, in which a girl seemingly effortlessly masters various everyday leisure and school tasks on her tablet and when asked what she was doing with her computer replies what's a computer and this commercial reflects common ideas about the digital skills of young people or the digital skills that young people are supposed to have as so-called and this is a problematic term the digital generation or digital natives which simply do not apply to the white society not to mention the possibility of being able to afford the corresponding hardware and software in the first place. So in the view of all those challenges I mentioned, we developed criteria together in our DDA team, according to which we selected different tools for our website. So over the course of several months, according to which we selected different tools for our website. So over the course of several months we collected all those lists, we scanned them, like we were a group of 20 to 25 people, and screened all of those private and shared tool lists and platforms and tried them out. We also sent out an online survey to teachers in the five countries in order to ask them, and also the students, what tools are you using, what are you working with, what do you need. We actively tested all of those tools and sorted them according to the following criteria, which follow the demand of digital, linguistic, and social justice. And before I show you the criteria, you have just a small insight into our collection process. So here's like a keep and the ditch list and so on and so on. And you can also see at the green list where how we described all of those tools and described what we found out. So the criteria is free access, straightforward user interface, usability, data privacy and so on. And then we divided the tools and we found categories for the tools that are now on the website. Here you see the filtering of the website, so just some of the categories. We have tools for 3D, for coding, for sound, for video, and so on and so on. And of course, this list is expandable, and we hope to do so in the future, and we are working on it. As mentioned above, we tested all of them. And now on the website, you can search for tools. And this is what I want to show you now with two examples. So just let me switch. So this is the website. You have the ideas and the tools here. And if I click on tools, I'm going to stay at english yeah let's just search for a tool for drawing and painting with low difficulty that works in the browser you could also choose what we learned now if it should be a floss software or closed source software so it's selection and here you can see that I have a list of some tools that are all like described in our own words so it's not like the texts that companies are using but we describe them and we analyze them. So I will show you, you know this tool? Does anyone? It's a very funny tool and none of us is really sure what to call it, so it's like matzahs and mutzahs, we don't know. It's a very simple tool for online drawing and animation. So we have different difficulties of tools. This is a very simple one or maybe just at the first glance a very simple one and I could show you here. I can pick a color and then I can pick my brush and I can start to draw's all let's maybe take something else yeah so yeah i will not get into that but you get the idea i'm just like trying to give you an overview of the whole website and then so maybe another simple tool for reset selection browser web app. And what I can show you here is KernType, which is an online game for kerning where you learn different things about certain typefaces. Also here I think most of you are designers, right? So you know all of that and I'm gonna embarrass myself probably. But yeah, that's a whole game where you can try the kerning here and then you get a score. You can like play it in a group and use it in different settings. You also get some information on the font and on the designers as you have here and can be linked on. So okay, I'm gonna go back to my presentation. So these were two out of over 100 tools on our website and at this point I would like to emphasize once again why it is so important which tools we work with and since launch of the website in January 2023 we have been actively working with these tools and the experience at least in Viennese schools and universities have shown that like only the browser-based very low threshold tools without registration were used in the lessons by the students and teachers in my seminar at least, because often there are simply no resources for more, often it fails due to a lack of suitable hardware and internet connection, and it's also important to emphasize again and again what alternatives there are to the tools provided by the capitalist internet companies, which often have a monopoly position. So I'm going to skip some theory because we don't have so much time here, and I'm going to come to the ideas, so tools and ideas. So what we did, we supplemented the tools that we had with further materials for art lessons to make it easier for art educators and teachers to start using new technologies in other words we wanted to link the new tools with contemporary discussion and critical reflections on art education architecture design community the public sphere and everyday culture. The result was a different, a collection of different projects that students, teachers and also university courses of the five different universities did and brought here. So the ideas here are designed for different educational contexts, also beyond school art lessons. Also here we have various filter options and yeah, this slide, I'm not going to talk so much about it, but it just shows like the interests we had content wise. So here you have some interesting literature. Maybe if you're interested in reading on you can check them out later because the potential and risks of technology and the internet are also a pressing issue in art lessons and art education german artist and techno feminist cornelia solfrank you also find her book the shunning kriegerinnen here says there is no outside of technologies and that technology should always be considered in close connection with the conditions of their creation. And these conditions include forms of discrimination based on infrastructural inequality and discrimination by politics, companies, and individuals, discrimination at the level of code, algorithmic discrimination, toxic ideologies and global crises. So that's very, very important for art education because we are working with pictures and we are working with simple tools that people will then, again, also if they don't become professionals, will use in their everyday life. So what could this look like in practice? I'm going to switch again. Back to the website. We have the ideas here. And also here we have a filter system with the same categories and with different contents and i want to show you one example for art history so you see many many different ones i'm sorry it's a new computer for me new computer for me. This is an idea that's called change the story. And you see here we always have one picture. You have information on the duration and the group size and formats and target groups. And you have a bigger explanation here. Here also always the licenses. In this example, I'm gonna stick with the picture, is by Rosalie Lorenz, a student at the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna. And she takes a critical look at art history, collections, and their reproduced power relations based on artistic position from the European North American art canon which usually forms the basis of art history in and out of schools contemporary artistic positions are presented to take a critical stance on this European art history this approach invites students to discuss the dominant narratives of artistry and also the associated hierarchies and structural forms of discrimination. In addition to discussion and reflecting the project suggests that students also try their hand at the practical and playful critique of the visible representations in this case by creating GIF animations. So these GIFs intervene in the narration, change the relationships of the respective protagonists in the picture, their forms of representation, visibility, and so on. They are a humorous examination of art history and the prevailing conditions. In addition to critically examining the canon of art history in terms of content, pupils make decisions about how history or stories can be changed, encouraging them to put themselves and their views into context. And of course, basics of image editing and animation are provided and students can take their first steps in complex image editing software. So here you see the D-Day tools that are used. There would also be lots of different tools. I also, as you can see here, not all of them are open source tools. So also that is debatable in the future to come to an end. And I am gonna change back here. And I am going to change back here. There's just some other examples of what we did. This was just a game where we tried to create a game in order to mediate a website in the classroom. So not so important now, but that's also a big topic when you work with digital platforms and digital tools. So as I said, a database like this cannot be described as complete. Just as new tools are constantly appearing, the didactic debates continue to develop. Here again, some literature that we use. This can be seen particularly well in the example of AI tools. In recent months, AI was taking over images. Attacks to certain knowledge generating tasks have triggered a debate about the general change in society, particularly in creative fields and professions, but also in education. So which knowledge, which forms of expressions will be forgotten in the future and which will become new tools in our tool collection? So to come to an end, we do not know which tools will be used in the future. Nevertheless, the aim of this database is to create an entry point for teachers, art educators, students and pupils to establish a contact with digital media from a critically informed perspective in relation to software and apps, but also to maintain this contact at the level of discourse in the form of ideas. So, important topics as digital justice, digital intersectionality, image rights, open educational resources, and beyond in contemporary critical digital didactics. So thank you. Okay, so the idea was now to open a bit, maybe the discussion with the participants and also with the audience, maybe to gather some impulse or ideas. I really like the somehow how Helena kind of answered to what would have been my question to all, which was something like, how do we choose so we solved that cool yeah I want maybe to check if we have a second mic so I think like for me was I really liked how also this became also a way of kind of feeding back to the projects that we saw at the entrance from the students. Because they all kind of, so we started the semester, and if you want to add something, Marianne just jumping, but we started the semester having a conversation how to, about the dependencies that we have on tools, and I was trying to contribute myself with, of course not such a a deep uh explanation as you did honor um but uh all the on the issues that are around when we work with tools and um and we we realized quite quickly that it we could not do the workshop. And now we sit together and we all install GIMP. And because that would have been something completely off scale that didn't make sense. So it was more about starting with the reflection how we are dependent on things, how we connect, and how we are located in our practice. But yeah. and how we are located in our practice. But still, maybe I wanted to start with a question to both of you in a way, because still all these layers of decisions, all these layers of I have to be aware of what tools I'm doing, I'm using, what is my project about, I want to be super consistent and super radical, and therefore I need to use the tool. I mean, to me at least, myself, very often I end up in a sort of analysis paralysis moment, where I'm like, I don't know what to do anymore. And so even though I have lists of tools, then which one to choose and which one, how to address my audience, how to build up my content. So maybe I wanted to hear your opinion on this, to start easy. Can I just start? Sure. Well, it's, I think it's important to start off from the justification of why you want to change the tool that you are already using and you're used to it because if you have a strong enough justification that you're sure of it, then it's not so easy to get discouraged because it's very easy to get discouraged when you're trying an alternative tool because you're used to your own ways, you're used to how it doesn't work and you know the workaround and everything. As I was saying in the talk, it's like your expectations are very important to be managed before you jump into the whole process of trying to swap this out because you are changing a different mindset, your workflow is going to have to be altered it's you it's never a drop-in replacement which is why whenever someone asks me what should I use instead of this because this is the tool that I really want to get rid of I barely give an actual answer I just tell them what they should be looking into and then try and go with it because it's very dangerous to tell someone what I think they should use or what I use because it really depends on the person there are some projects that have more like headway in how they have become better but it's it's just a matter of like a mindset of like understanding the reasons why you want to change it and what you want to have out of it, so not to get discouraged on the way, and then understand that you will never have a drop in replacement. You might have to change a couple of other things as well along the way until you find it. One very good practical example I can give in order to try to put this in practice would be to pick a project that is in front of you and try that project with this new tool, instead of just trying to incorporate it in everything. Just see if it works with this one specific project. Because without the actual thing in front of you tangibly working against it or with it, you can't really figure it out. So let's not change the workflow just three days before the deadline, basically. Yes, definitely. That puts pressure. Yeah, that puts pressure. But in a way, like, no, actually, I don't know. What do you want to say? I think I could just add that, like, for our project, it was important that not everybody has the liberty to choose what tools to use. Or in many cases, it was the opposite. I mean, we were talking with teachers and students from five different countries and in Switzerland it's a very different situation than in Hungary maybe and like what many teachers told us was like we we cannot work with the tools that we had anymore so all the schools had like installed Adobe and then like they couldn't afford it anymore so they had to learn something new and also there I'm learning a new tool is like a lot and a lot of work so what we wanted to do and like maybe what we tried to simplify as much as possible is to to take also away like the fear of learning and finding something new and yeah exactly what you said actually. So, I mean, you really have to know what you want to do. And I think it's a very different situation if you're like a professional graphic designer and want to change tools, or if you just have to use a tool because of school, because of whatever. Mariana has an answer. Yes, so thanks for your talks. It was really very inspiring. Because you already mentioned it, you say when it comes to professional tools. And I think it's a very difficult question and I think it's also very difficult to say what does professional mean? Who defines the professional tools? And I would also like to know, do you know any strategy to escape also the professional canon in some ways? Yeah, I mean, we try to do that a little bit with this website in the collection, but it's also just one way of doing it, and just trying to find one place where you can collect many things together. But also, I have to say, it's so difficult to do that with a website. Because as you might know, this took us two years with five universities to put together. There are so many new tools that came out. We didn't add any new AI tools until now because every time you wanted to add a tool that was free at the moment, it wasn't anymore one month afterwards. So I think we tried to find a strategy here and we tried to implement in teaching. I think that's also very important. That what is there and what is possible? But yeah, that's just one answer. Maybe you have a better one. I don't know if it's better, but it's kind of like this David versus Goliath situation where you have this industry that has set practices and then if you're an educator, you have a responsibility to prepare the students to the industry. That's why I was saying this industry standard practice tools have this vicious cycle thing. But in terms of breaking the cycle, I think it has mostly to do with making sure that it's understood it's not the user's fault that these alternatives are like this or that the situation is not so easy to switch to it but it's also not the user's responsibility like as an individual to kind of change the whole situation but there are success stories like blender or caden live that are open source projects that were built with communities that then had enough people with the correct skill sets to maybe build a foundation around the project to make sure that the funding will continue and then with enough maybe marketing with enough people continuing with it it allowed to become another standard and that was like kind of an easy way into that because 3D modeling software professional 3D modeling software, professional 3D modeling software was so expensive and just to have a free tool that already became a kind of alternative, like a proper alternative and almost a drop-in alternative is a huge success story. So it's about these communities and kind of building and finding those links and maybe bringing in your own skill set to these projects because the projects always need more people and more help and a better perspective if it's missing this perspective and maybe that project can become the next blender but it's a very tight chance of course it's not very easy it's a very very difficult situation there but I think there is hope there is also examples of success stories it's always this compromise on the scale thing and how I will discuss with Gabi all the time is like is also the question of who can afford to be critical and to change the tools right so and, but maybe not only who, but when and how. So we can make this questions wider and try to isolate maybe this moment in which it is possible. I think there is a lot of, how to say, expectations on tools. And then when you want to talk about that, of course, everybody understands the principles and the importance of being free and not being tied to tools but then in the daily life it's really tricky to go out of the loop and then sometimes it's okay to just can't just not be able to do it but sometimes there are moments in which it is possible. And I think it is also about kind of maybe trying to bring up the voice of Carlo, because I think that didn't come across so much. Also acoustically, maybe from his book, he's really supporting this idea of finding these moments of fun, of maybe taking a point in on this professionalism, trying to go out of this, of maybe taking a point on this professionalism, trying to go out of this idea of we have to be producing all the time. So in these moments, try to experiment with things and take our times to go out of the traced road. But yeah, this should be a safe space, safe process, because it's very yeah it's very an intimate moment and one is really uncertain about that yeah I had a question for for Helena I mean if you have questions sorry I say I am I moderate myself is there a question or a comment from maybe also from the students of the Viscom who are doing this process? How do you feel when we first met and you listened to this? No comment. OK, then I bring up my question. Yes, this.. Okay, then I bring up my question. Yes, this. Go. Hello. Okay, a little. I studied in at experimental publishing and those topics were like daily life. And I think like starting to talk talk quite often about this too at one point, maybe you are also tired to listen to these, and then you start really to use them, or just the opposite. But aren't you excited to say, OK, I did this project without Photoshop, without Adobe. I have to do a bracket. When I was 13, my favorite hobby was to install Ubuntu in the computer of my mom. So maybe it's a strange approach, what I'm trying to say. But to have more empowerment on your tools is not something exciting for you since you're a study design. OK, no. like to have more empowerment on your tools is not something exciting for you since your study design okay no that was a question for the students okay anybody wants to answer In a very practical question, don't you feel more empowered if you use not like Adobe, but you use something that you call from your own? I mean, it's nice also to say no. From your own? Your tools, like if you start to use a demo instead of yeah Photoshop background removing you use a FFmpeg and you have a lot of a day to understand how you can do is well maybe maybe it's not that easy yeah it's not about for me the power from the tool or from the... It's not about, for me, the answer is about to develop. No, I just said it depends on your approach, if you actually receive the power from the tool or from your product at the end of that. I mean, for me, it just doesn't make difference. If I have something that I like at the end, the the product it doesn't matter how i reach to it so um yeah it's just my idea yeah that's just okay i mean we don't and uh we don't have to be like not a tool so not always in the in the first place, but I think that is also a valid comment. Sometimes you don't have the situation to experiment. You want to build on safe ground, on solid ground, then that's one of the difficulties of also opening it up. And I agree. I have to say, I didn't want to bring the attention to the students so much because I'm sorry for that. I think just to say, we started this workshop six, eight weeks ago. And there has been two weeks of holiday because you know how it works in Austria. So we had very little time. And then we actually did not reach yet the moment of saying like okay now i'll try this tool or and i don't know if you're gonna omit it i think with marianne we were discussing is really nice to provide the space to open it up and to really start maybe also from abstract things so again uh like some of the groups were thinking more like how to handle information, how to get less, I don't know, less general suggestions, more as a community way of creating or becoming inspired from things, or like finding archives, like finding something very specific that can be archived from people so and i really like that it was very specific what they were looking for not trying to substitute their whole career for their future but to like just finding this one tiny space and maybe this is i would say this is a very nice example how to try and see that this very safe limited space where you can experiment and be safe with that yeah i don't know i i interpret gabby i have a question but it's not about tools thank you finally perfect i was wondering about your project helena because I was wondering about your project, Helena, because it's remarkable that it's very accessible as a website and also for the tools. Like even as not being an educator and I felt that I could make use of these tools immediately, maybe because the design also helps to make them accessible. So thank you for doing the projects, first of all. And I was wondering if there's some kind of feedback structure to follow up the, like how the website is working in the location place. And yeah, for the teachers and how and how yeah this can have different iterations because also you said the websites are not they have a they are not staying on are changing all the time yes i mean um we are of course we have to care for the website a lot. So there's a lot of care work and maintaining, checking links, trying to update, adding new tools. And what we are doing is, like me and many of my colleagues, I mean, I can only speak for Vienna at the moment, but I know of some other countries who do that as well. We are using the website a lot in our education and we are creating new ideas together with the students in our courses. And also, I mean, it was an art educational research project, but not all of the universities and institutes that took place were like institutes for art education. For example, the one in Rotterdam is for uh social design practices so like there's also a lot of different materials in there um what we did is we we're doing a lot of talks lectures and workshops with schools so that's why i also um showed this image of the like of this uh riso game that we made uh because uh yeah we were thinking a lot about how to mediate this. And there's just really still a lot of, like probably you wouldn't believe this, but a lot of fear of digital tools and using digital tools, not only at teachers, but also with people who are studying to become teachers. That's why we're trying to work a lot with it. And yeah, I mean, as I mentioned before shortly, the main feedback was really that we are only using the tools where we don't have to log in. We don't have to download anything. It has to work on the browser. It has to be super directly, because we don't have time for nothing else. And that was very interesting for us, to be honest. else and that was that was very interesting for us to be honest i mean whenever i heard when your presentation and you were saying like these qualities of accessibility of like low entry barrier no login like simple uh you know um connectivity or you know not not you don't need a powerful machine i was actually thinking about some sort of poor tools theory um so in the sense that like maybe it would be like also about simplifying the ways and kind of focusing on one thing and having like most of these things are cooperative so it's more like a community standard almost to to do it so yeah i like this idea of like having this uh space to experiment being guided and uh like listen also to the students themselves that was very very powerful i was wondering if you were interviewing also some of the tool makers um no actually not yet no not yet no we were trying we were trying to to get the name or the pronunciation of the name of the animation tool, but nobody answered. And there are also very complex tools on the website. That's just what I wanted to say, is that people like using the very simple ones that surprise them. It's also very playful because you can try it immediately, as you said. So, yeah, you can try it immediately as you said. You can choose your tool by using it. Cool. Is there a final remark or a final comment? I'll do it by saying, shameless advertisement, that we have one of these tools is the cliff drawing which we're going to experiment in the in the rest of the week in a workshop and we will have also like a do you have the cliff drawing in your collection cliff drawing dot club this seems to be very promising there is people in the back that i have to write it down for the person who is updating. That's the group from, I guess, Potato Publishing that arrived. Hello and welcome. We were missing you at the beginning, but now we give you the word later. Yeah, so we have a couple of workshops like this. And I think, like, thanks for the ideas that you also brought up through your both presentations and we will uh carry on with them and yeah big applause Thank you.