Thank you very much. Please do join us on stage and we'll have a discussion. We have about 45 minutes now so please do if you have any questions raise your hands and I'll try to moderate the discussion accordingly and also for you, if you have questions for your presentations, please feel free to just jump in. I made some notes and I'll try to go through them. And just, if there's a hand raised, just let me know. So maybe we should start from the back, because actually I had a question there to connect your two presentations. Falling off the stage. In the sense of can your tools which you were kind of describing be used also in the context of border forensics? Do you see kind of a crossover especially considering that you both have been talking about aerial imagery is that something you could see So I'm going to give the consultant answer, possibly, maybe it's unclear. So the thing is, I think the methods are applicable, but the tools are very specific. And I think there's also something maybe to focus on, that the methods are more important than the tools, and the tools will always follow the methods. Specifically, the tools I wrote for this project, I don't think you can reuse them, because they were made for a very, very specific purpose and for very specific people to be used as well. But I do think that the knowledge or the insight that went into these tools are applicable, for sure. But I think we would the knowledge or the insight that went into these tools are applicable for sure. But I think we would have to start from scratch and build them again. Yeah, maybe just to add, I think in the context of border forensics and our current investigation, satellite imagery depicts basically one moment in time, right? And we're trying to look at, for example, what happens during the day, what happens during the month, like, you know, mapping this on top of each other, and that, therefore, it's a bit tricky, and we also don't know if you can actually see the drone, since it's quite small on a satellite image, so that needs to be found out. It is, there is an NGO, if I'm not mistaken, which is called CI, which is actually looking into the very use of, I think, satellite imagery, but it hasn't really been that easy or successful. I think the, hi. I think what CI is trying to do is detecting boats with this technique. Yeah, and it's quite difficult. Okay, and then I want to come back to you because there was an interesting statement about probability. Maybe you can elaborate on that a little bit further. Well, so when we talk about data, the data is always very heavily influenced by interpretation. And we have to like process data to come to a statement. And data is not like giving absolute truths. This is just like something that like this absolute idea, something is yes or something is no. It's often very, very difficult because with data often, we deal with a lot of data at once. And then very often, we very quickly switch into a place where we say, well, how likely is something? And also with data, as I said, for example, with the camps, from our method, we can say something is there. But we are still looking at it through a proxy. We have not really documented and witnessed it like directly and that changes of course like the Relation to it So if I look at a satellite imagery and I make a statement like I would be careful to say like it's definitely this Right, like I have not seen it with my eye I've only looked at it through a proxy on my screen with pixels taken by some machinery that I'm not aware of so there's like a lot of layers of like mediation between like what I'm seeing and what is happening and I think this layers of mediation like we should like be careful about like this and therefore I think like an approach of like trying to stay like a little bit of like I think something is that or it's likely or it's less likely that we start to think in probability will actually help us and it's also like a thing when we do a human rights research we have to be careful to tell the truth right so if we say if we I don't know we make a story about like hospital bombings in Syria and we make like one mistake in one incident or one event that we depict was different than what we said that is the rest of the research is also like loses credibility and so I think like probability is one way to deal with this like being careful of like not stating something that maybe you made a mistake or it's just like it was mediated wrongly or something like this. The probability is also important in your case when you're actually trying to spot those drones. So I think that's the nut to crack, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, this is basically what I've been trying to explain earlier, is that it is quite difficult to find this relation, and that is why we do have to cross-reference and I think this also kind of goes along with what you have been doing right with talking to people and talking to witnesses and this is why this is like such a crucial part and it will always be a crucial part of human rights work right because people experience these things in real life and then looking at the data surrounding it is somehow this kind of remote sensing at a distance that you're trying to do but you can never say for sure and that's why you have to verify things I think you raise a really really good point it's like data in this sense like the type of work that we're doing it's always encapsulating the experiences of people and I think we should be very careful of like not abstracting it too much like trying to have like too much distance to it because we lose like the the reason of like why it's interesting to us why do we look at this stuff why does it matter I think this is a very very important question why does it matter that we do this kind of work and it's the human angle that is like, that's why it matters. That's why it's relevant. I have a question, just one more point, which I wanted to add is the verification process, really. That I was just wondering, because you say that's, that's really a human engagement, it's a human labor, it's actually done by humans. So computer assisted verification is a kind of a buzzword, I would almost say. But I was wondering what was the motivation of your, if you can talk about it, of your colleague you actually showed in China to do that verification, because I think it was rather risky for him to drive to those spots. I don't know what his motivation was. I don't know him personally. I only know he's safe. That's all I know. And so I left it there. What his motivation was, I really can't. I can only speculate. But I'm very, very thankful for the work he did because it was also a very, very brave thing to do. It's impressive to actually see those videos. And we have a question coming up, so maybe I'll just walk. Okay, there's one. And I think there's another one. Yeah, thank you for both of your presentations. I think it's a question probably concerning both, but it was raised in your Christos presentation. I was very surprised by the kind of procedure that you outlined in the sense of the step-by-step process that you ended up in this stage called narration or making a narrative. And for me as a person that maybe thinks more about scientific work and less about narrating or journalistic work, narrating or journalistic work, it was very curious that in a way that you have this apparently very objectified work, you work with this data, you verify the data almost like any empirical scientist would probably verify their data. What would that be, this kind of narrative stage, and what do you think is the purpose of that narrative stage? Is it to gain an audience, or is it to... What does it mean? For example, in the two of your projects, I mean, is it just to make it credible? Is it to make it more interesting for people to engage? This is, for me, a bit of a question mark, what the purpose of the narrative element is so I think storytelling is important and I think storytelling is something that we do constantly and I guess it also really depends what your work is and I think in journalism also like in human rights work like storytelling is important because we tell the stories of people as well I think what is important about this is that like it it it makes it maybe an understood like what it meant to people who have to like experience these kind of things like very often we do human rights documentations like actually what we're doing is we are documenting the experiences of people. And I think these experiences of people, they're always narrated. They're always like a story that people tell. And sure, like stories can be also contradicting. Like this is also like very, very can happen. But I think like, because like for me at least, like because this is like what we are in essence are doing, that's why I think the narration part is very important okay can I just clarify so when you say storytelling you're actually referring to method like reportage like talking to witnesses you're not talking about creating a story on what you see in your tool basically yeah exactly so in the example of this research, the first time we dropped articles was four articles. One was describing the overall prison regime with the data that we gathered. One article was describing the method because that's also very, very important to share the methods with others to understand how we got to the results. And the other two articles were interviews with people who were like imprisoned and so it was this combination of these four articles together that basically made like the first version of this or the first output of this work like two more articles came afterwards so I think two and I think it's this combination that basically makes it relevant so that's and that's also why I would say like narrating a story is important because in the end we also like we talk about people we talk to people and this is the narration part like so if I was working academia and probably like it would be a different output but I think like that the methods up till then are like similar enough and then you really have to think what is your output but out of the same process you can also produce multiple outputs like you can have like a newspaper article you can have like a documentary you can produce like a scientific paper and they can all like be fed through the same process of like data pipelines Thank you I'm gonna answer your question but maybe not talking too much about storytelling and more about the visual part of it. So the aesthetics of storytelling that plays a big role I think in border forensics works. And as you already mentioned also in the question of credibility and like how much do I understand the data that I see right. Like for example with your work, I think this is also explaining the methods and explaining what you see. There is something that makes it more credible if it's well-received, you know, and if you understand the data immediately as soon as you look at it. Or, I mean, not immediately, but if you engage with it and you understand it and it's coherent, I think then it makes it more credible which is quite important for human rights violations and contexts of that where we where we do our work right there is I'd like to turn to there's one question though, let's take this one in the back, please. Hello, thank you for the presentations. I have a question that has to do with, especially maybe for Giovanna, like when you, have you ever been approached by Frontex for example, or by this, because I can see that forensic architecture does this work, that it's supposed to happen from justice or like legal, like actually from the state and protecting the citizens and refugees. So I'm wondering like, so this is like forensic architecture does this research independently and sometimes in collaboration, right, with other institutions, organizations. And I'm wondering if you have been ever approached by the target, like Frontex or other entities, and what happened in this dialogue? So I think Lorenzo is much longer in the field than I am, so he could probably answer that question better. I haven't. Usually it's more the other way around. Like I explained that earlier with the FOIAs, right? Like we try to ask them for information. So we're actually trying to establish contact, and usually that doesn't work. So with the FOIAs, for example, we have like this very tiring work of constantly asking for information that we're just not getting. And then I think using other forms of data to actually get to the information that you want can be a possibility, which is obviously not always possible. Sometimes you also just have to work with the gaps, and then you also have to try to make visible that things are missing. This is not complete information like what I've shown earlier like as you could see even in the gaps of the tracks right information that we have data that we have it's never complete it's never the full picture because there are reasons behind that right there are reasons why Frontex for example is not publishing certain information that we would like to have as researchers. So yeah, I think this is also something that you constantly try to work around. And yeah, it's, it's, it's hard work. Cool, thanks. Does that answer your question? Yeah, yeah. Maybe, yeah, no, I think it's good. I don't want to extend, people want to ask. Have you been approached? Yeah, but I mean, like, if you have an impact with your work, for example, and then actually affecting a system, that then it's, I don't know, one case, you know, it changes, because of you, it changes turn. Then I'm wondering, like, will they come to you and say, hey, wait, wait, like, you know, trying to control you or stop you? Yeah, just a question. I don't know. I mean, I think it's a difficult question because I haven't experienced that, right? And I can't really imagine Frontex doing that. I mean, they do react to human rights journalists, right, directly, because this is much more like a direct interaction than we have with them, right? I mean, we investigate their work and what they're doing and try to follow up on their decisions. But we're not that much in direct contact, whereas a journalist, human rights journalist, for example, would interview the Frontex head or something. So there's, I think, more direct line than we have. Natasha, you have your hand up. It's actually a pursuit of what you were saying, have. Natasha, you have your hand up. Yeah, it's actually a pursuit of what you were saying, but it's about pointing out the very different position from you to where you two are coming from because I guess indeed Frontex has the data that you are searching and they are tweeting it, but we live on the same side, let's say, to put it simply. But on the other hand, I imagine that the work that you've been doing on the Uyghur, maybe they had, we have this, someone else has this information apart from Chinese people. I mean, or is it not? Just the fact that you're a small entity compared to a Western state and I suppose that some Western state had maybe done this information. So it's a very different position and at the end we're still ending up with lonely, lonely, well, small groups of activists behind computers developing these aesthetics to develop a credible discourse to face a gigantic, our own power structure. So yeah, I guess it's more of a comments, but that's, I don't know if you... And then when you present it, you come back to the human side, which I think is amazing. So then the question would be, what is the guy saying in the video? Do you know? No. But... So I'm sure you can find the video, and somebody did translations, but I cannot vouch for the translations. I cannot understand the original either. So feel free to watch it. The video takes like around 20 minutes, so it's not too long. About this observation about the relationship with states and stuff like this, I'm sure some states have the capacity to make these kind of researchers I'm sure they do but quite honestly it does not affect me like like it's about us being able to do these kind of research and I think that's what matters here I guess this is also more of a question for Christo and I mean now that you've mentioned it, can you travel to China now? That's the first question. And the other one would be, did you follow up on your research? Because in the last couple of weeks, there was the Xinjiang police files that were leaked. And maybe your opinion of what you think of it, if there's something in the data set that interests you personally, but also maybe something that you would want to work on with the people that you've worked on before. So the first question was if it can go to China, was, no. I mean, I don't know, I haven't tested it, but I wouldn't try at the moment. I think that's a safer thing. About the second one, try at the moment I think that's a safer thing about the second one I think there's a lot of things happening on this topic and it's super super interesting to see what other people do and of course is the timing of these like police files was also like very very good because of course it was at the same time when the UN High Commissioner Commissioner was visiting the region. So I think that report still has to be published, and I'm curious to see what's in there. But my hopes are not very, very big. Politics is very complicated. But on the other hand, the stuff that we are able to find out, either through research, and it's not just research that we did, a lot of people are doing this kind of research, and also these leaks, quite a picture comes together. And so the Chinese state states is like, oh, we just don't understand what's happening there, and we are like not interpreting the events correctly. So those are not prison complexes, those are apartment complexes, and they are not re-educated. They're just like, those are trade schools, so people learn a job, so they have a better future. And so there's this total narrative. But I think there's so much evidence at the moment, be it about forced labor, be it about witness reports from people within the camps. It's just so much evidence at the moment, like witness reports from people within the camps just like so much evidence at the moment or witness reports it like it's really really hard to dispute that something has is happening like maybe we don't get every detail right I'm not saying that like we are perfect and stuff but I think the big picture we probably got right by now has there been any uptake? I mean, you ended your presentation with that there might be someone following in your footsteps, so to say, actually taking up the data and taking it further. Have you had any knowledge or is there something going on now? So I don't know about the ongoing work that hasn't been published, but we do know we share the data with different institutions. The data is publicly available, it's on GitHub actually, which is very useful because GitHub cannot be censored in China, so that's one of the very few Western services that is not censored in China because otherwise the Chinese software economy would not work anymore. So publishing data like this on GitHub is very good and that's also like the place where this unknown person got the data from because everything else is censored but GitHub not. So I'm pretty sure people picked it up. We did share the data with specific institutions that are working more fundamentally on the issue of human rights in Xinjiang. I'm doing this kind of work and then I'm doing the next kind of work. Right. And there's other people who are like really continuously working this over many, many years. And so definitely I think people are picking it up. And I think the data set got bigger by now. So other people found different ways to identify more camps. So I think at the moment we have the location of like 500 camps in total, something like this. Like we as the collective, we. There's a question over there, please. Maybe just to add what you just said, I think there's like also a general tendency towards data-driven journalism in general. Like I feel like you can really see that this is a trend that is happening in a lot of spaces. I think also in the human rights area, that there's more interest in how can human rights reports be expanded, for example, and things like that. Thank you, both of you, for very interesting talks. This is perhaps a little bit more towards Christo, but maybe both of you can reflect on it from your perspectives. I'm wondering how these methods, how does this change? How, for example, Baidu then masks their... How do technologies change when we find methods of figuring out that they are masking camps? Do these methods develop then also? I'm thinking about how camouflage and machine vision has developed through world wars, in how they were, camouflage artists were painting, and then we get different new kind of technologies. Is this also kind of happening in this digital world, in how our aerial images on maps camouflage? So in this specific instance, this data scraper that I wrote, like I had to run it for like one and a half months and I kind of like with like a lot of like pain got it to the end and like let it finish and dealt with all the errors that were produced and then I didn't run it anymore and I tried it half a year later again just like to see and then we just thought maybe we can scrape more parts of China why not if you can do it and it didn't work anymore so the thing is like but I would not assume that this is something like a reaction to like what it is we're doing and back then we were like not publishing we didn't publish the results yet it's just like the nature of technology that it's just like constantly like evolving and changing and I think like the way that the script work it just exploited a certain implementation that worked at that time and just this implementation change so I think it's just like a really like a software programmer changed something about the product and suddenly like this thing just did not work. And I didn't bother anymore to look into it and like figure out a new way to do it because it was not relevant to the work at this point. It was more like, oh, if we can do it easily, let's do it. And if not, then let's move on. But so yeah, things are changing constantly and also like the tools that we're developing, especially like the data scrapers, like there are a lot of maintenance work. Like we have to, if I write a scraper today, maybe next week it's not working anymore and I would have to change it to basically keep up with the world around and that's very, very normal in this kind of field, yeah. basically keep up with like the world around and that's very very normal in this kind of field them probably a lot of you have used YouTube TL which is always nicely updated that you can get a lot down from the internet I'd like to switch to pick a little bit towards something which both of you have addressed which is violent so to say of course you kind of have been dealing with prison violence and in your case it is kind of frontier violence, border violence. You actually asked the question, so I'd like for you to elaborate, if that's all right, on how to assign responsibility for this hidden violence. Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. That's why I asked it. I don't know if I have a clear answer. I think in general, it kind of also connects well to your earlier question because I think with human rights, we always question, oh, should we pinpoint, should we point our finger on this one topic? Is it not then getting more attention that it maybe should not get, because at the moment it's really well to research it in some sort of ways, right? But then that also raises the problem of not pointing your finger towards something, right? Which is difficult at the same time. And I think with hidden violences, it's like the same thing. And then there's also the question of what is hidden, right? I mean, Frontex really does try to do its aerial surveillance in the least invasive way, I think, especially, like, you know, you have all these infrastructures, right, that are based on the ground, like we have, we can, we can see them, people can, can actually go to these places, right, like we can go to the airport in Malta, and we can see the drone taking off, so surveillance and, and violences need infrastructures, and these infrastructures are always visible, right? So it's just like the question of like how do we follow up on that? How can we make it more visible? How can we show the structure behind it and how it is tied together with the whole concept of how our society works, right? This is not just one prison, this is like a larger problem that we have, right? And I think that is also a part that connects well to the narrative of the story again, right? So how can we go from one case to this overall problematic that we have and that we encounter? Yeah, This is not really an answer, is it? But I don't think I have one, to be honest. I think that's also why you asked it, but I just wanted to come back to it, because I think it is also a question of responsibility, which we all probably will have to ask as a society as well, which is kind of the borders of Europe. We are kind of witnessing these kind of violent acts. And so to a certain extent, it is society which holds a certain amount of responsibility there as well, which comes back to your Chinese prison camps. It's like a million of Uyghurs, which you kind of referred to, are actually imprisoned there. Do you think that your work actually sheds light on that violence? Well I mean I think it does because like I'm able to speak about this these happenings in this work like in spaces like this or like we can publish articles about it. I gave interviews on it and stuff like this so definitely like definitely, we can speak about it, because it's also safe for us to speak about it here. So that's also something to really consider. Specifically for me, I think Frontex is getting really a little bit more complex, depending where in Europe you are. I'm not sure if I can answer the question as well, but I think just the nature of the work that we're doing, this kind of investigative work that we're doing, this kind of investigative work that we're doing, is a way to try to make things visible. Because an investigation is always starting about something that we don't know. And the goal of the investigation is to expose something that we don't know yet. Sometimes an investigation is at that end and nothing is exposed that happens. But on average, we try to uncover something that we didn't know before that's the goal the big goal of investigations and I'm just gonna answer to that and I think that's true but then there's also tendencies right like I mean it's not like that we didn't know about like prisons and in China but like we didn't know how many right and so I feel feel like most of the things that are investigated in these contexts are already, we see the violence surrounding them, we hear of witnessing and telling stories, and then it's just like, how can we find out more, and how can we just make it less hidden than it is? Maybe to answer to this as well, but so for example, in the beginning of the presentation, you showed this map with a lot of planes on the map, and then you zoomed in on specific tracks. And so this is also something that I think is a property of data-based investigations where we can, on the one hand, prove or work with the systemic issue, and we can, through data, really have the whole systemic map We can on the one hand prove or work with the systemic issue, and we can through data really have the whole systemic map or the systemicity of what it is that we're investigating, but then we can also look at specific incidents and really look also at anecdotes around it, look for the specific story that represents the overall picture best. And this is something that I saw in your presentation, and this is also something that we try to do in our research, of course, with the witness testimonies. And this is also something I used to do documentation of the war in Syria. And that's also something where we did there. We collected millions and millions of videos documenting the war. But in the end, you only need ten to create an example of one thing that happened. You don't need a thousand videos to show the same thing. You just need ten that are giving an example and prove enough or good enough that you can tell a story about it and say, this happened. I'm going to come back to the beginning as the last thing so that's that's before going there let's give give it a final round of questions there is two questions and then I come to my last point for this evening Giovanna and you know if there was like an official reason given by the EU as to why that Italian wasn't given funding? I don't want to say the wrong thing. I also don't know if there was an official answer to that. thing I also don't know if there was like an official answer to that and I think that was like a general request from Italy that they said and this is very costly we need support and it was just like in general you know sometimes things happens and it was just not given but like not explicitly explicitly stated that they're not going to do that and but I might be wrong, so just check. Thank you. Thank you. Maybe it's a naive question, or it goes outside of the topic of tonight, but I was wondering, is this, like, the computer-driven journalism or inquiries, is this the only way that we can kind of take states accountable for what they're doing? Or like, are there other ways that maybe don't need such a high computation on one side or like such a scientific base? Yeah. Thank you. So I would say like no it's not the only way like there's a lot of ways that we can go and I think also when we speak about like investigation like I think it's very important to state that like the goal of data-driven investigation is not to replace traditional forms of investigation but just like to add like another tool in the toolbox. I think computers cannot replace like like computers don't replace everything we did before like they just give us like maybe like new approaches that we can do and it's only when we mix and match that we get to a point. In this specific case although I think like it did allow us to do something that otherwise we were not able to do and so for example like my colleague mega who was working in China and had to leave the country like her visa was not extended because of her work generally it is not possible for like journalists from here like to travel to China and do this kind of reporting so data-driven methods of these computation methods were for us the only way to actually find something or investigate something without actually being physically there. And so in this case, this was of course because we had no other choice. But also in a lot of cases, for example, like the example of Syria, it's also like a question of security and personal safety that very often we can like replace practices that are like dangerous that put us into ways harm with practices that are like less dangerous but still like i mean we lose something as well as i said like we can look at satellite imagery and think we believe what we see but it's only when you stand in front of it that you can actually create proof that it is what we think it is and so on the one hand like we reduced the the level of safety concerns that we would have otherwise if he had to do this secretly traveling to China secretly getting there driving around but on the other hand we also lost like the ability to like really bring different types of imagery that would prove something. I still think in terms of imagery, a photo is much stronger than a satellite image. I think throughout history, in history, we can think of so many images that basically made something clear to people and turned turn it into like a known fact and I don't know any incident but like a satellite image actually managed to do this until now like I mean we can we can start about like how a satellite image started a war but that is probably a different discussion and yeah I would second that I think like in general and data-driven investigations, it's just like completing a picture. I want to maybe second something that I said earlier, is that there is an immense amount of work done by activists, done by grassroots organizations. I think a lot of that is not really visible, like how much is done, like, for example, the alarm phone, right, is doing incredible work in the Mediterranean, and Sea-Watch as well. So a lot of people are actually, like, activists in the field doing a lot of work that is the basis for investigations like these. And, yeah, technology is super useful in terms of, like, getting a new angle and getting a different way of looking at things getting or verifying maybe even things but it's like getting the whole complete picture with various forms of sources and information maybe just to add to this also like in this kind of investigations that we did with the prison camps, we still had to rely on a lot of traditional forms of investigative methods. This kind of desk research that you do, you cannot skip it. But maybe you have more indicators of being able to know what to actually look for. And also often what happens is that you do combine it with investigations on the ground. So very often we can sit here very comfortably, we can do this kind of investigation, but then we still have to basically come back to people who are actually there present. And so I think just because we cannot do the verification through computers. We still have to have this human element in it. So therefore, I think, yeah. Yeah, thank you. I mean, I was just mainly thinking about somehow which is also, maybe also one of the reasons for which the data-driven journalism is kind of emerging so strong that there's kind of maybe a widespread belief, like widespread scientific belief on data. So if something is backed up with data, it has a larger, wider impact rather than... So I don't know, it's just a thought. So that was my reason for the question. Thank you. Right. If there is no questions, I will be asking you for some closing remarks if that's alright. There's two points which I kind of noted from your presentations. One is, of course, it does come across in both presentations, the notion of human rights defenders. So if you want maybe to close off on your thought or how this actually will now evolve, so to say. And for Giovanna, there was the notion of, or I can't have made a note around the criminalization of search and rescue operations and how will now border forensics actually deal with that. Because I think, of course, there is going to be a lot of need for the years to come so if I may invite you for some closing remarks let's just see if there's any final questions because after that I think we release our two presenters to some drinks so let's just give it a final chance for questions otherwise informally at the Stadtwerkstatt if you join us for the night line just over a beer etc. So please remember 9.30 I think it will start at the Stadtwerkstatt with the nightline and performances. And now over to you for closing remarks so maybe I can invite Chris first and then Giov, please. So I would be careful to really put myself out there and say, oh, I'm just a human rights defender. I work with a lot of human rights defenders who also really do this kind of work for a long, long time. I'm still primarily a programmer. That's what I know what to do, and I feel like I'm the most useful there as well. I do feel like it's a very important area to work in, and I think also like maybe this is just like my perspective, but I do feel like that in the last years this idea that human rights are universally applicable got like a lot of pressure. I think like not everyone would agree anymore, and also like even states that you would think that should agree or ratify these agreements are changing course in this question. So today, for example, at the workshop I already brought about, under the Trump administration, there was this effort to actually abolish the human rights and replace it with a new concept. It was called the unalienable rights. So the idea is they're kind of like human rights and replace it with a new concept that was called the unalienable rights. So the idea is like they're kind of like human rights, but every country can define by themselves what it means for them. And so that would be like weakening up this universality of human rights. And I think this is not happening for the first time, but it's for the first time that a major player like the US actually tried to push for this. So luckily they failed. It didn't happen. And so I I think that's very very good. But I think again I mean this is probably always true we take often things for granted and until they're suddenly not there anymore and I think the human rights like we grew up with them the idea that like we have universal rights and no one can take them away from us and maybe tomorrow you won't have them anymore so I think it's interesting to do this kind of work I mean you just started a whole new topic which is criminalization of search and rescue organizations, which probably needs another half an hour talk. There's a really good investigation by Forensic Architecture on that, which is a Juventa case that you can go check out. I wanted to maybe... I mean, I really don't know what to say. Yeah, it's a whole new topic, basically. I guess there's a way to... If you look at the situation in the central Mediterranean, obviously Frontex is highly funded. It's the EU agency with most funding, actually. So I think this is going to be a very important topic in the future because you can actually see its development in the amount of money that they're getting. I think it's 500 million at the moment. And yes, criminalisation of search and rescue is a highly important topic. There are various laws that you can really see the decrease as well of naval assets in search and rescue organizations because they're highly punished for insane things. So we have to see how this develops. There are some law cases going on at the moment that are just gonna exemplify things but yeah I think I'm not gonna get into it and there's there's the investigation that I've been talking about and that has its first release and the initial release at the end of July so you can can check out border forensics website, which is borderforensics.org, and then there's gonna be a second release and bigger in autumn, so yeah. Thanks. Teksting av Nicolai Winther Thank you.