Good afternoon. A very warm welcome. This is the fifth day of Crossing Europe. And this afternoon is dedicated to one of our really dearest and special guests this year, Alena van der Horst. We had the pleasure to dedicate this year's tribute to her work. She is a filmmaker, which was part of the program already twice in recent years. But this year we really tried to make a package and to invite to ourselves to Linz and we were successful and that's why we are really happy that we will have a tribute talk today with her and yes yeah and we're really thankful and happy that Alena is spending almost the entire festival with us which is really. And the tribute talk will be hosted by Neil Young, who is a dear friend of the festival and has hosted many tribute talks before. So we absolutely trust in what he will do now. And I think we're going to hand over the stage to both of them now. A very warm welcome, Alena and Neil. Neil Thank you Sabina and Cathy and thank you to the people who joined us in this beautiful Linz day today upstairs and we can have a nice chat with aliana von der horst who's our star guest and tribute recipient of this year's festival um and it's been great to be able to see your films on the big screen as they should be as they should be seen i'd seen boris rigi 15 years ago and have had strong memories of it i re-watched it and it was i remembered a lot from the film but to be able to then see other films that I hadn't seen, I know the audiences have been very appreciative. The obvious question is when retrospectives like this happen, because you've had them in Kiev, Belgrade, Barcelona, I think in the last 10 years or so. This is obviously the freshest, the first one for seven years. Do you take this opportunity to go back and re-watch your films? Or do you, once you make a film, is that it, you move on to the next one? Well, I re-watched quite a lot of films this time. I don't really remember if I did it before. Well, it was a bit like if I had time to come and if I had time to watch it. But I kind of liked to re-watch it and also to feel what I think now about the film, to revisit them. And I had a really strange experience that, you know, for this festival, I needed to digitize a really old film that I shot on 60mm together with Masha Ohms, Voices of Bum and I was sitting in the studio just before coming to the festival and then somewhere halfway I was sitting with we were just checking technical things like you sit there and you're not really into the film and then the strange thing happened and then halfway the film both of us were very very quiet and on three quarter of the film I started to cry about the film you know because I kind of forgot what I made and that's really strange and now and I just came from the screening of Water Children that I made 13 years ago. And I thought, I'm not going to re-watch it. And then after the first five minutes, I thought like, oh, I kind of forgot what I made. And then I said, oh, I need to re-watch it because, you know, I know parts, but other parts kind of were away. And then when I saw it again, then, you know, triggers all all the memories of making it and yeah so something that I will talk about later is is how the films are often collaborations you mentioned there Marcia Oms and the latest film Gerlach is co-director with Luke Bowman but also you know you're working with editors and very important collaborators. But also I get the sense that your films are often an opportunity for you to make contact with people. Because, for instance, in Turn Your Body to the Sun, you accompany your friend who then goes to revisit her family. And in Gerlach, you make contact with him and things like this. So, again, when re-watching this film, I would imagine that in in Water Children with Tomoko which of course it's sort of her story largely but your story also a bit also presumably for you it kind of you you remember the people and how they were when you filmed them yeah yeah very much so and with Tomoko I just realized that I didn't know her very well somebody asking the audience like how did you meet or how well did you know each other and after I made the she came to see I didn't know her and she was like with an audience and she watched the film and then she told me about this project and I said oh maybe I like to make a film about it. And the same thing happened with Turn Your Body to the Sun. Sana Valijulina, the protagonist. I didn't know her. No, I only knew her professionally because she's a writer. And I asked her to come to see a rough cut of Love is Potatoes. And then she said, I'm going to search for my father. I said, oh, can I film it? So it's kind of, it's, you know, one film leads to another. And in some strange way, I feel more, most comfortable, well, with the latest film, to latest films that I made to film people that I know a bit. And they're not my best friend but but still you have a lot of documentary filmmakers and they you know they go and they do research thoroughly and then out of 100 people they chose one person they really cast and and i i don't know why but i just you know i let myself you know kind of trust the process or i don't know trust the people i meet or i'm just you know very interested in like this person i think like oh and of course it's also a kind of casting you know if somebody would not fit in a film i would not not make it. And I meet a lot of people. But still, I think this making films together with somebody and not so much about a person is something that I cherish in my work. In the Dutch word gezellig. It's kind of impossible. You love it, this word. Every time I meet you, you say, oh, gezellig, it's kind of impossible. You love it, this word. Every time I meet you, you say, oh, gezellig. It's a gezellig festival and you're a gezellig person. But the Dutch have this idea of like gezellig is like people, it's like coziness. Yeah, it's like cozy, the togetherness. And it's, you know, in a country which is very crowded, 16, 18 million people sort of crammed into this small corner of Europe. How do you get along with people and being able to get along with people in a Dutch way, which is, you know, it's not necessarily bouncingly friendly to everybody all the time, but, you know, to be able to have that intimate contact, I think, is what it comes down to. And I see this often in your work and the degree to which you put yourself in the film or choose not to you know so for instance voices of bam you know it's very much observational but in other films we see you we see you know in in water children we see your hands we see your face in her like you're more kind of out of it but again that's getting into the sort of practicalities and the editorial decisions of as a filmmaker i'd like also to ask it's a kind of a continuation when when when you sort of think i have to get all of these films ready for this retrospective and you then have like a body of work a corpus it's like oh yeah and i never thought it would be a career it's really you know I I finished my first film I thought well this is probably my last who's going to ever give me money and then oh maybe I can make one other film and then I stop you know and then after I made a film I was so you know tired I thought I will never make a film again and so it went a bit on and on and on like this and now I I suddenly have a body of work yeah and so and so diverse I mean there are similarities between the films and we can say love is potatoes is kind of in a way a kind of mirror film of turn your body to the sun but watching the films all together in a way, a kind of mirror film of Turning Your Body to the Sun. But watching the films all together in a week, you're really struck by how different they all are. Yeah, but it is also like, I think one of, who said it? One of the famous, I think Derek Jarman said it, but I'm not sure, said that every time you make a film, the next film should be totally opposite. that every time you make a film, the next film should be totally opposite. And I think he, and then I thought like, yeah, I also feel that you need to kind of give yourself a new, something that you think like, wow, I never worked with animation. Let's try animation. I never worked with archive. Let's try archive. Just to feel how you would do with all these different uh yeah uh sort of materials you could say you know if you're talking about paintings it's like watercolor and and uh oil and so you you want to experience yourself in different ways and see if you can make something out of that so it's a way of keeping it fresh for you yes totally yeah the kind of catch is it is if somebody says oh there's a new film by olena von der horst it's like oh what what what will that be because because if you say there's a new film by frederick weisman or a new film by michael moore or verna herzog you've got a pretty good idea what it's going to be but with yours it's kind of it could really be almost anything that we get yeah yeah yeah it's true and i think with the uh when i speak to artists it's always when an artist wants to you know visual artists when they want to try a new style you know their gallerists are always against because you know yeah but the other style sells better you know and uh but that's boring you know in yeah, but the other style sells better, you know. And, but that's boring, you know, in a way. But then again, I, well, as far as I can see, like, in the Dutch film, arthouse film audience, they kind of go, like, to see a new film by Alion from the Horse, whatever it is. So, there must be something that is you know that people think like okay it will not be a waste of time we don't know what it will be but we know it'll be a good one so this is maybe yeah i hope so yeah yeah and and there is of course there there is something uh you know that i have kind of body of work where my films are more personal and I think half of my work deals with Russia and the traumatic past of Russia and Gerlach is actually the first film I made in the Netherlands so it's always you know I traveled to all these other countries finally come home finally come home so finally come home yeah so so it is it is diverse and uh it is uh but i think maybe it's um uh i'm always looking for some kind of intimacy well in a good sense with the the the protagonists and and something real something that's what I heard from the audience for instance there was some people who watched Voices of Bam one of them was Iranian and she said like yes but this is real this is the stories we hear in your films is like how I experience it and somebody else in the audience said like yeah we have of course Kia ostami but there i feel that you know the director wants to put some you know the way he sees it onto the people he portrays and with your film i feel it's more you know more complex maybe or more diverse or more real in that way. And I think in every film I'm looking, yeah, just for this and for a kind of, you know, I hate the word. Do you have a better word than poetic approach? Delicate. Delicate, of course, you know. So I always, you course, you know. So I always, you know, poetic approach and then I think, oh, people hate poetry. Why should I say poetic approach? But you do find ways of kind of making the films poetic without it feeling kind of precious, you know, because I mean, poetry can be, Boris Rigi is a poet and his poetry is not what people will call poetic. So it can work. Beuys' Abam is the oldest film that we're showing here. It's from 2006 and co-directed with Masha Ums. It's not your first film because you'd made Lady with a White Hat in 1997 as a student project, but it had great success internationally, winning awards after the spring of 68 in 2001 and the Hermitage Dwellers in 2004. Is this because you prefer those early films to stay in the archive or was it just a time? No, not at all. I needed to choose and I think six was the maximum. And I think, yeah, I would love to have shown the film after the spring of 68, because it's also a film about my parents and about me. So it's like the first personal film when nobody was making personal films. And I'm not saying it's not an ego document, but I'm a bit in it also without wanting it. And then Love is Potatoes you know also you know kind of there is a bow from one to the other and uh and the hermitage yeah i love i love it very much uh but yeah it was just too much it was just too much yeah and so for people who've seen your films here is there a way of actually seeing the other films? Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah I put it, many films free online on my website leonavanderhorst.com so I'm not going to make a profit anyway, so I thought I better put them online, who cares then they're going to be seen anyway I think it's nice that the audience can discover those films intimately for themselves and yeah yeah for sure just just my first name alianne van horst dot com is very easy website thing and even a perfect website i designed it myself and i'm really bad at it it's pretty good i was looking at it it's pretty useful um as you say when you made the first film, there was never a kind of grand plan to become a filmmaker because you studied literature, Russian literature, in the university in Amsterdam. Yeah. And then you studied film in some way? Or how did you translate? Yeah, it was very funny. To go from Dostoevsky to documentary is a bit of a jump. Actually, I'm very happy that I studied something before. From my background, I never thought I was creative in a way. I don't know. It was just not in my head that I could go to a film school. But I became an interpreter, a Russian interpreter, and it was the 90s, so I had a lot of work. And then I thought, oh my God, I don't want to stay an interpreter all my life. But maybe along the way, I will find something that really interests me. And then I'm going to make it my profession. And then one day I was invited to go on a train from Holland to Moscow for film students as an interpreter. I said, oh, why not, why not? And then it's really true. I never thought about it. And then the magic happens in those two days because I never thought that documentary could be about, you know, filming a train, you know, knocking on all these doors and asking people to tell about their life and, you know, just to fulfill your curiosity with the camera. And I was allowed to do it all. And I was like, oh, these are normal people and they will go to the film school. And oh, but if this is documentary, well, then I have a lot of themes I can think of myself. And so I kind of, you know, very fast, I kind of made a first film and then I got into the school and it was like heaven. And it was like, oh, but this is really what I want to do and oh yeah and I discovered editing for myself because I had to make a kind of film to um to get into the school and it was I still to this day I remember the magic of you know it was back then it was 1992 or three and it was like you know vhs cassette one vhs cassette two play record play on the same time you had to to press both like and otherwise you had a gap like and you had to do it all over but the whole fact that you know that you know you can't you I kind of discovered but oh this is how you make a story and it's yeah it and it's still something I think you know it's just you know uh it's like an addiction to to to do it every time again. And magic. Were you familiar with, I mean, obviously, the great Dutch documentary filmmaker is Joris Eefens. No! And then a bit later we had Hennie Honigman. Yeah, she was then starting. But before I went to film school, I went to the IDFA festival and I saw 40 films. So I just went there and, you you know kind of tried to educate myself and then but not necessarily with Dutch it was you were just watching whatever whatever it was yeah yeah and I thought also the first time I watched Joan van der Keuken I thought yeah what I don't get it and you know I really needed to to uh well to educate myself and understand, like, why do people think he's a great filmmaker if I just don't understand his films? So it was really, yeah, I had to start bottom up or something, yeah. And IDFA, which is the International Documentary Festival of Amsterdam, which is pretty much the biggest documentary festival in the world and has been going for, what is it, 40 years or something like this. And as I say, you know, I have the tradition of your receiphans heddy honigman yourself the latesters there's a whole kind of universe of dutch documentary i mean we we don't have so many big dutch fictional filmmakers in the same way they tend to have to go to hollywood or what is it about the dutch the fact that they they are so strong with documentary is it simply the fact that television is is has always put lots of money into it it's always been endorsed or is there something about the dutch mentality which is i don't know curious and wants to tell stories in a non-fictional way sorry this is a big question yeah well well i think i i still try to figure out if what you're saying is a kind of cliche because that is like you look at the dutch paintings and then you know they're always depend depicting a normal life you know not some saints and you know so or dutch people are calvinistic so they're not so into, you know, making up other worlds. I don't know, but I think we just had also a really good funding system. You know, I don't know. We had, of course, Jan van der Keuken, who is also a self-made man in a way. And he's produced himself. He's a cineast, so he's doing it all by himself um but i'm not sure yeah if if that's really the case but i think we had a lot of great television documentaries in the netherlands as well we had you know my big biggest example was it was called the ogrenes and it was like they went it was between documentary and report but it was really deep uh and it was every week on dutch television so and uh so but i don't know why there's not so much fiction i think people are just you know not well it used to be not really great and now it's getting better uh so it's a bit hard to answer but but yeah a lot of filmmakers prefer not to talk about a distinction between documentary and fiction you know they say we're just filmmakers and you want to put this in boxes later but from your perspective in terms of you know that you make films in the way you make them you deal with real people you tell their stories of course there are scripts there are you write things you've shaped the material but it was never tempting to you to sort of create a completely fictional story yeah everybody keeps asking me this and um and uh and to be honest what i i'm just every time i think, you know, I would love to, but then I'm terrified of being on a set with 50 people. And for a long time, that was really, you know, what it was if you wanted to go into fiction. And now it's changed. So never say never. And, but I think what is interesting, but it can also kind of be hybrid. But I think what is interesting, but it can also kind of be hybrid. But for me, what is interesting always with documentaries is that you learn so much along the way and you learn so much about people you will never know. And what you also mentioned about being in touch with people and having real relationships with people in the films and in some way i'm i'm sure this is also what the audience feels when they watch films they they you can sense if it's a real uh conversation with the with the director or if it's only like i'm doing an interview or whatever without Without really opening up yourself. And I think also this issue of trust. Because obviously for a documentary filmmaker. Trust with their subjects. But also the audience has to trust the filmmaker. When you're watching the film. And if everybody's a happy lovely thing. Then it's obviously fake. But like there was a moment in Love is Potatoes. Where you're on the phone with the aunt who doesn't want to get involved. And she's, you know, she's very tough to talk to. And you put that whole conversation in and you don't really kind of get through to her. And she kind of hangs up the phone. So it's important to have that kind of not everybody's going to be friendly with you and have a wonderful lifelong friendship. Yeah, yeah. with you and have a wonderful lifelong friendship yeah yeah but i always saw making documentaries is like you know putting yourself into the world and trying i'm i'm a very hands-on person so i'm really bad at you know of course i write the script but i really want to trust the process of making films and change it along the way, if possible. And also if I talk to people or if things happen, I just, yeah, for me, it's not interesting if I know beforehand the outcome. And this is maybe also an answer to your question, why don't you make fiction? I think in a way I would be bored if I would make a kind of fiction so I write a script and then I only need to kind of fill in fill in what I wrote without being able to improvise so no I like to change I like to you know I'm also a very reactive person you know the moment I I see something and I think yes this is good for my film no it's not good for my film but i cannot you know think of it beforehand i have a really bad imagination so maybe i'm very dutch but you were talking about how the films get made and how what what what the funders or the producers would say so if you if you go to make a film not quite knowing what it will be you know you have to be very film not quite knowing what it will be, you have to be very persuasive in the funding process to sort of say, well, we're going to make a film about this. We don't know what the solution will be or the destination. And again, it's trust because they have to trust you that you will get somewhere. I mean, like in Boris Ruggier where you're knocking on the doors and the film's only 60 minutes. In about five minutes is people not letting you do things but of course then you're seeing the milieu of his area so it's not like wasted time in any way but yeah you incorporate those sort of random moments because you can't control it and you wouldn't want to control it. No, no, no and I think you know the way I write I wrote for instance the script of boris ruge i said like okay these are the themes we have this this this this this and then you have like 10 10 ways to approach the theme so uh the the well the film and sometimes you succeed and others because i i think i even wrote like oh yeah we're going to film in jail and we're going to film in the factories and because he has so many things about the factories and also we're going to meet all his friends who he was with like James Joyce you know we wrote about his friends and Boris as well and then we found nobody and then we were not allowed to go into the factories and and then i said okay what other themes do i have so so you kind of you know you you tried a bit here you tried a bit there and then you you tried to make you know then you make your soup yeah i don't know if you if you cook do you follow the recipe or you just you know put things in and then you i i'm the least cooking person probably in Austria. Oh, okay, that's the wrong question. But I follow the recipe that I made in my head about 20 years ago and it's the simplest possible thing. But yeah, I know what you mean about like, you know, do you, to what degree do you improvise? Yeah, that's the thing that you do and that's also very important to be able to. And actually as somebody just mentioned it also to me you know when things really go terribly wrong i i have like this strange reaction i think ah finally it's and it's really every time with film you know when things go right i get a bit bored and then things you know just don't work at all and then the whole if i if i am with a crew everybody is like oh my god what are we going to do and then i kind of you know i really but it's again it's it's the challenge as you said yes the challenge is so nice yeah then you keep it fresh and then you think like oh how do i make something out of this and And then also what is also very nice about the situation where things really go wrong is that you think, okay, it's a disaster anyway. So whatever happens now is a profit. What do you say? Like a benefit. A benefit, yeah. Something good must come out of something bad. Yes, yes, yes. So whatever, you know know everything is ruined anyway so and then you don't have to then you lose your own expectations of what it should be like and then new possibilities open up and that's interesting but having said that you know i when i reread my scripts later, I think, oh, but, you know, because, you know, I write them, then I don't look at it. And then somewhere at the end of the editing, I start looking and think, oh, oh, but I wasn't so far off anyway. So it's not. So I think writing is really important. I really, I'm, I think it is really good to have some time, to take some time to put your ideas and your thoughts on a piece of paper and then, you know, and not just go and film and not think of why you are going to film. For most of people. For me, it works. I think it is still surprising to some people that a documentary has a script that a documentary is written and it doesn't mean it doesn't mean exterior day we approach this i mean it as you say it can be a it doesn't even have to be written down at all but that something has to be there no but the core you need to know what the film will be about the theme like the head they let you, as also in fiction film, yeah, you need to write a log line. And so what is the film essentially about? And for instance, also like Voice of Bomb is about surviving and how to deal with loss or something, something very general. But if you lose this and you're not thinking about it, that the film can go, you know, whatever way. And it went to the way that it really kind of put you internationally, kind of, because you'd had success in the Netherlands. And this was the one, I mean, it won the prize in a special mention in Tribeca, was shown internationally. And then that kind of got to there. But I was thinking when you said about overcoming obstacles, I mean, you've been making films for 27 years, and it's impossible to have a 27-year career if you're not persistent and you keep going through it. With Boris Ruggie, as I say, you studied Russian literature, and he was a Russian poet, obviously. Was that the connection there? Was it that you knew him from your literature? And what was your emphasis when you studied Russian literature? My emphasis was actually, when I studied Russian literature, it's early childhood memories of a Russian symbolist, Andrei Bely, and Nabokov. Because both were writing about their childhood from two to five, and no other writers did it. And it ended up that I made a short film in film school called Memorabilia, where I asked people to tell me their first memories and what they meant to them and the very, very strange first memories people tend to have. So I kind of reused it later. So that was... But with Boris Ruzsi, I thought like, oh, maybe I should one day make a film about how much people in Russia love poetry. And then it didn't happen. And then a translator of poetry said to me, like, what, you don't know this poet Boris Ruzsi? You have to buy his book. And then I bought the book, and then I read the Dutch translation to my husband, and I thought, oh, but these poems are really, you know, even if you don't get all these other layers, it's still beautiful. And then I met, he already was dead and I met his widow and his son. And we had also a very strange kind of meeting because she burst out in tears and I kind of tried to console her without knowing her, which was really strange. But in some way, yeah, it's also a kind of connection. You know, I think there is always a strange connection with the people I film. That's also why I don't make too many films because I I think it's really important to not make a film and then you know I said thank you very much I'm off but with most of the people I'm still in touch and I think it's important because it's just a way of life making films it's not something you do and then you forget. And with her, I'm still in touch. And yeah, and not because I need to. It's because we really kind of became friends. And with each film, more people to keep in touch with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the way I don't want to have too many films. More Christmas cards. But it's funny that I didn't know about the Nabokov thing and I don't know about Bailey's life story but obviously Nabokov was Russian from a very cosmopolitan background learned French and English went to the US and had a whole career there and kind of straddled it was a Russian writer became an American writer Hedy Honigman who I just mentioned was from Peru and so she had this sort of double identity and you have also kind of this double influence. And I don't think it's coincidental that, you know, that you and Hedy Honigman both emerged in documentaries, that you have this connection with Nabokov. The idea that you combine two massively different cultures, I mean, geographically and mentally, and I can't think of two more different types of people than Dutch and Russians. And again this is something which you've addressed many many times in various ways in your work. And without that do you think you would have become an artist? Because is it the combination of these two very different flavors as you might say that creates the taste? two very different flavors as you might say that that creates the the taste well i'm not sure because you know i wouldn't be me if i wouldn't be you know so but but what what i think what really helped uh i probably i would just make different films about different topics and maybe i would make fiction or for instance or whatever or do something completely different but for me it you know I think I was kind of luck well as a child I always traveled you know with my mother to Russia and I never understood the country because it was Soviet Union just I just didn't get it as a child coming from you know the Netherlands what it was all about which is lenin and not you know you were not supposed to talk about politics and people were standing in long rows and crying when they listened to you know some uh russian singers you know my mother just started crying with visotsky and i was like it's a r Russian singer, and I just didn't, so you feel a lot, but you don't understand. And that is always a really good, you know, motor to start investigating something, you know, so investigating other topics and see the country for yourself. Like, okay, but what is my relationship to it? So that is, and I'm still not done, I'm afraid, but I cannot go there anymore because of making two politically, you know, films now. But still, it is something that is part of of making it and it's and the thing is i think what it makes it easier when you i don't know how it is with hayley honigman but for me when i went to japan when i went to iran um because i come from this dual uh background it's easier to understand another culture because you think, oh, this is, for instance, Japan is very, a culture of, you know, being together and it's still a very strange culture, but still you understand maybe more than if I would be like super, super Dutch. And was it, I don't know, was the Portuguese, the Japanese were the only country that they allowed to go there? No,uguese that the japanese were the the only country that that they allowed to to go there they had an island yeah the dutch ones yeah yeah so there was some connection there's the thing that is your aunt says where she says you do speak russian but your understanding is that of a foreign person and it's like delivered actually she says it in a very dutch way yeah it's like dump yeah that's you told you may you speak russian perfectly but and and again this idea of you know identity and it's like of course it's like i think the uh and that that is something yeah yeah yeah also heddy hodemann experienced she made beautiful films also about like it's today it's fourth of may which is like the um what is it in like when you remember the death of the second world war and she was the one who made a film which is called two minutes of silence which is about it and there was no other dutch person making this about this very dutch ritual and for me it's it's it's the same being an outsider is something why you can you know why i could look at russia and you know the the the past and the traumas because i was an outsider if i would have been living inside russia i would not probably be able to make those things I would think like well this is normal this is how it goes and so sometimes you need an outsider to make a film and that is also a bit yeah so you need to be in and out at the same time just again thinking of when you're in in Boris Rizzi's neighborhood do you speak Russian with a Dutch accent so they would hear that? No. So they would not audibly hear that you were not Russian? No, but they think, they don't understand from which city I am. So I don't have a kind of specific talk. Yeah, yeah. And Alena, the name, it's a Russian name. Alena, yeah. Alena. There's the film by Boris Barnett, but you're not named, the name does not come from, it's a film from, I think, 62 or late 50s. Very beautiful film. Oh, oh. So maybe you're named after that. But for people who don't know the story of how your parents – because it is such a kind of remarkable story that, you know, I mean, you can tell it better than me. That they met and they wanted to get married and they did get married. And the idea was that your father went back to the Netherlands and your mother was going was going to follow straight away but things didn't work out like that maybe you can yeah and i made a film about it which is not being shown here uh it's called like uh after the spring of 68 because uh yeah my mother was actually in i didn't know what happened it took her five years to come to the Netherlands and it was like a horrible time for both of them because they didn't know if they would ever be together again and it all well I give a big spoiler but it all was because Prague happened like 1968 yeah and then the dutch communist party broke with the soviet communist party and they tried to and my father back then was a communist but he lost faith but still you know back then it was like that and then he was kind of they told him oh you can have your wife come with you if you could strengthen the ties again between the dutch and russian communist party and he couldn't he was just a normal you know ordinary person so so my mother was a kind of hostage of the system in a way you could say and uh yeah this is how my life started yeah and they never spoke about it it was terribly traumatic nobody understood back then what it meant to somebody yeah and when you say they you never talk about it does your father appear in any of your films or speak in your films because i know hair like is dedicated to him and and you sort of see images of him sometimes yeah well the film that I didn't show that we're not talking all the time about and this this uh this after the spring of 68 that's the film you know where my father has the biggest role and he tells about it yeah yeah obviously your mother appears you know incredibly powerfully and movingly in Loving Potatoes. I mean, she dies in the film. And the way that you present her death is really… Yeah, in the photo. Yeah, and then it goes to black. I mean, you see the movement of her thing, and then it cuts to black, then you go to the animation. And so she knows that she's in the film. She can't talk at that point. But I think in these films you're clearly dealing with your relationship with your parents clearly in the films i mean were they always kind of understanding and supportive of the fact that aliona is now a documentary filmmaker this is her career she's given up this nice job as an interpreter now she's going to study film i mean did they take a very dutch attitude about this of you know make sure you you know it's a good solid thing or were they just kind of like oh be free no no no it was uh it was really a bit like uh well they were surprised and then but i said yeah but you know when i finish i will work at some educational channel and i will have like my stable income and that's what I thought like okay now for four years I can be really you know play around and then I will do something serious and then when I started to film them they were I thought it was back then but it was like it's a film from 2000 or 2001 and nobody was making well not a lot of people were making films about their parents and my parents were really afraid of what I would do and my mother really didn't want to appear close up because she had wrinkles and you know and I was not allowed to interview her it's all in the film in the end but but because then she felt that she's, I was like the KGB, so it was not easy to film them. And then, and I felt terrible. I thought, oh my God, and then maybe I end up making a film and hurting them. But it's really good to know that you might, you know, to have this experience, what you actually do to your protagonists, like the ethical question, like to expose them to a big audience and also how they could feel about it. In the end, you know, most of the films and most of the protagonists, you know, the moment you have success, people will not, you know, criticize you for being in a film. This has happened also to my father my father oh they will know i am i have been a communist and the neighbors would know and but the neighbors started to treat them as celebrities and that's really you know and the same thing happened to gerlach you know he was also a bit like he has like this hunch back and and he's like like yeah so he was okay with it but he said i don't care but of course he kind of cared but now you know everybody sees him as a celebrity nobody is talking about the way he's looking so it can be a really healing and fulfilling experience for protagonists to to be in a film but i needed to find out myself in in in this film uh after the spring yeah you had to kind of experiment on your parents yeah yeah but it's also experimenting on yourself well i think the most the biggest experience was on myself to to feel because because i think many filmmakers if you don't feel how it is to to be the subject of your films. It's, you know, you need to know it to know what it is. If you want to become a tattoo artist, your first tattoo has to be on yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before they let you tattoo anybody else, you have to do it yourself. Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. You should try it as well. We got there. But this also brings me to something that I touched on earlier, which is the point where you decide editorially or when making the film how much of yourself will – I mean, there's moments in some of your films where I think Tomoko says, you should be in the film, come into the film and things like this. And then, you know, we see your face, we see your hands, you talk about your personal intimate things. And in other films, you don't do that. And it's always a question of degree. Now, to you, is that an instinctive thing? Or do you discuss it with your collaborators? Or how does it work? No, it was really instinctive. But I thought that, well, with Water Children, you know, I was touching on such sensitive topics. And I asked women, you know, to be incredibly intimate, telling about the children who died. And, you know, really, really, really, you know, stuff that people don't talk about easily. And then I thought, it's not right that I keep myself off this. Like, oh, it's only about you. it's not right that I keep myself off this, like, oh, it's only about you. And I'm also a woman, and I'm in this project also for a reason. And I really liked it that Tomoko, the protagonist, turned the tables, and she said, now I want to interview you. You know, you did interviews on me, now we're going to do it the other other way and I just you know I like it when my protagonist gives me this kind of you know what you deals me that card and because because then something unexpected can happen and and there I really wanted to I didn't want to be in a film of course you know I thought like I can do without and and actually when wanted to I didn't want to be in a film of course I thought I can do without and actually when I sometimes I coach young filmmakers and they make a film about something very personal and they always in the first conversation but I'm not going to be in my film and so haha it's something but it is maybe it is just too vulnerable to say and I think it's something but it is you know maybe it is just too vulnerable to to say and it's i think it's good if somebody starts from that because then you're not so narcissistic if you start with like okay i want to be my film and you know it's it's okay you know i have nothing against narcissistic films it's just not that i'm this kind of filmmaker i think i think maybe younger people or young film students they kind of think of i don't know michael moore type of thing where the film becomes about that person and everything else goes into the background no disrespect to michael moore but obviously there are a thousand different ways of doing it and you show that no and i think the only reason that you know you you you you yourself are in the film or you make a film very personal is because you go from the personal to a bigger story about society like for instance uh well many films are just about very big universal topics. And you use yourself or you use your family or you use, in that way, your protagonist to tell a story that goes further than their personal story. And if I don't find that link, I won't make this film. Because then it stays only personal. And I think it is always very political. And I think it's always very much about how big history and big events shape our lives, and shape whatever we, you know, just shape our fate, and sometimes destroys our fate. So not faith, but fate. I hope my English is okay. It's an interesting yeah crossover i mean you're making me think of the moment at the beginning of um turn your body to the sun which begins with hitler and stalin yeah and and then we see you know somebody's watching them these giant figures of history and then of course drinking water yeah and then then the film itself is about how people kind of got destroyed by these giant things. And we see these, you know, incredibly harrowing pictures of people in the war kind of naked, walking, marching, going through rivers and being destroyed. And that kind of thing between the personal and the political and the individual and the epic is something that, again, you seem to be – you're able to kind of move that. It's like playing the violin. You sort of make the connection between the two without it feeling forced. And it seems quite easy, but I know it must be incredibly difficult to do that. Is that an editing thing? Is that something where you work with the – I mean, because I think you normally work with collaborating editors. Is that something where you really kind of rely on them or is or do you impose or present a certain way that you say this is how we connect these individual stories with the history of the entire history of Europe in the 20th century which is obviously yeah yeah but well that's already in the script so it is something that i'm after i i just think my my way of working is very often to to connect to go from a very specific individual point and then you know the film broadens broadens and then you you see it from one well uh from one you, uh, start, you go to something really universal. And of course, yeah, the editing, oh my God, that's the most important process of it all because, uh, but, uh, but I always, you know, I always work with editors and I give them always the credit and they deserve the credit, but I'm also, I'm always sitting next to them. It's not, you know, and they need me as well because, also I'm always sitting next to them it's not you know and they need me as well because you know an editor can do anything and they work with all these different persons but you know I'm really precise in how to tell this story in a most um yeah with as little words as possible and if you want to make stories with you which are really big you really need to uh to make it yeah what's word concise or size compact economic economic yeah yeah in a way economic and still it needs to be also poetic but you know so it's it i think the editing is the most important thing and i'm always there to kind of you know feel it if it's going to the right way i'm just checking the running times because all the films we've shown the maximum is like 90 minutes you're very i mean have you ever made a film longer than 90 minutes no no no no i think 90s yeah which is again it's you know considering the the the size of the subjects you're dealing with and of course editing isn't just about how long is the film it's about it's about rhythm and all that kind of thing but but again the fact that you're able to do this and keep the discipline of not saying now the film will be three hours but that's maybe very dutch to you know that you don't want to overdo it and i really to you know that you don't want to overdo it and i really think you know if you have sometimes it's just nice to have three endings you know you think yeah but i love love all those three endings and i just you know i i'd like to cut it away i also like to to cut away weeds in my uh allotment garden so it's really like i like this feeling it's too much too much too much let it's really like I like this feeling, it's too much too much, too much Like Gerlach says, only the weeds are growing the thing is not working I mean watching Love is Potatoes which I was completely knocked out by, I mean I was kind of amazed by the film it reminded me of Tarkovsky and when people, somebody reviewed Mirror and they said that which is I think his masterpiece he goes after the great white whale of art, which is to tell the story of your country through your own life story. And if an artist can do that, then, you know, they've really killed Moby Dick. And watching this film, again, the fact that it's about your kind of strange family and this strange cousin you have and the little house that you have and all that kind of thing and then you have these animations and you and you do all this and i don't say the kind of but that is a that is the kind of film that only somebody can make i think at a certain point in their career i mean if a person tries to do that as their first or second or even third film i think there's going to be some problems. What advice do you give to young filmmakers who may be setting out and, you know, in both in the kind of the macro and the micro in terms of like, should they do it? Should they be a filmmaker or should they go and do something else? Big questions. Okay, here's a question. Who am I? How do you know whether or not you are a filmmaker? Oh, I don't know uh i think perseverance it's one of the perseverance perseverance no but i'm serious i think uh it's even more uh perseverance is more important than talent in a way because you can be hugely talented and not know what to do with your talent. And you need, I think, you need to find yourself a theme or a subject which is in some way, some hidden way, maybe connected to your life. Even if it's hidden, you don't need to talk about it. But you need to find something that gives you really strong emotions so that you won't be bored with it for the coming two years. So you have to feel it. It has to be a physical feeling. Yes, I think everything is very physical in documentary or in filmmaking. When I watch a rough cut cut I feel in my body when it's well done when it's not well done I feel I really can feel it in my stomach when I'm shooting a scene I feel in my stomach if it's good or not I even can you know when I'm doing camera work myself, when the scene is not really good, I feel I cannot really find a way to film it. And when something is really important going on, I'm always very worried. But then I know that it's happening. And that's a kind of intuition that comes probably with um uh with experience i was gonna say because when you were starting did you have this feeling and or maybe you had it but you didn't trust it yeah yeah yeah and you had you you learn to trust the feeling and you learn by uh by uh not uh thinking about how things should be. You know, when you finish film school or film academy or whatever, they always teach you how you should make a film. And then it's really nice to not do it. And then it only starts after finishing. And just don't be afraid to do it. But find yourself something that you really think, I won't be bored. Because a lot of themes will bore you in the end. But you might be spending two years. Yeah, because there's always more work than you think. And your first several films, it's never paid well. So if there's other things you can do you know when you when you like to be paid well then please do so oh yeah and one last thing we had a really nice discussion uh yeah this morning with other filmmakers not only documentary but fiction it's really you know we are so bad at asking that you know also you know if you're beginning beginning i don't know how beginning but most people are maybe not beginning uh to to ask for what you're worth so you go to the producer said like listen this is the way i like to make my film and uh and if it's going to be success so you really need to be uh not be afraid to to feel your worth because without us filmmakers there will be no film festivals and usually we're just so happy oh i can make my next film you know i made the same mistake oh there's a producer who wants to work with me how fantastic you know and and then you're afraid to ask and uh you know and and set your own standard for it or and you need to be paid and you need to be paid well and uh and i think maybe it's also a women thing more than a male thing that we're also afraid to ask you know to but you need to live and you need to live more than maybe when i started in uh in 1997 when you know i was used to live as a student and but you know housing prices were not so high and we could yeah it's still then i thought how stupid that i didn't ask a normal netherlands hadn't had decades of neoliberal yes exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah may have made a difference yeah but i think i think we always forget the question about money and how you know how you get around and how you use also festivals you know i think you know you have, you have, for instance, there's one festival, True Falls, and they have like this pay the artist way that if, you know, filmmakers come, they get paid, but it's not being followed up by a lot of other festivals. And I think it's also something for filmmakers that, you know, you can ask like, okay, is there a screening fee? You know, we're also part of the equation and uh so so i have a really yeah i don't you know everybody's so different so i i feel really you know not in a position to give a good advice about how you should make your film or even not if you should not be bored by it maybe it's good when you're bored by it you know it, there are no rules in that way. You just have to follow your instinct. It's a very instinctive way of being in the world. But coming back to money, something that is not really well talked of, I think, you know, we all should, you know, not think like, oh, thank you so much, I can do this job attitude. Oh, and payment is a nice bonus. Payment is a nice bonus. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I get some money for it. In Austria, this can never be talked about because there are so many people in Austrian creative industries who don't need to work because they come from very wealthy backgrounds. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but that's also… But you can never talk about it. You can never… Same thing with the Netherlands. You know, writers, Dutch writers, they all come from really wealthy backgrounds. That's why they can write books. But the same thing goes with filmmakers. And, for instance, in Italy, where there's no funding for documentary filmmakers, it's more… It's an elitist way of, you know, being in the world. And it's… Something is really very wrong with it i mean it's not that's not to say that rich and posh and educated and aristocratic people can't make good films i mean visconti was brought up in a castle but the other people should also be able to i mean it's a question of access so so again i mean it's access yeah you do teach and and when you teach you know do you is this what do you think filmmaking can be taught or is it practical things is it I'm not teaching it so much I'm what they call in the Netherlands I don't know how you call it here coaching so filmmakers with the first second third film I kind of you know we talk about films and about you, whatever they need to be helped with. And I try to be a good listening ear and kind of, you know, so, but I'm not teaching, I will be teaching a bit, but it's more masterclass like thing. Yeah, I'm not the kind of teacher who gives, you know, kind of assignments or, you know. But I have noticed that some of the most interesting younger filmmakers from the Netherlands like Sandy Aravich from I think she's from obviously ex-Yugoslavian background and they're filmmakers again from sort of you know migrant communities who find the stories and people always say well the reason why the Dutch don't make particularly good fiction films is that they're too rich and they don't need to tell those stories and it's kind of boring to be rich and all that kind of thing. And I say, well, there is poverty in the Netherlands and there are social issues. And as I say, I think it's notable that they are emerging. But when you were saying about film festivals, your films are shown at film festivals. Television has also been very strong for you. Gerlach has been a surprise box office hit in the Netherlands. How important is it for you that your films are shown at festivals and in cinemas? Because obviously, again, if you're a young filmmaker, the temptation to go and make a nice Amazon or Netflix series, which will be, you know, you'll get a bit of a payday, but the film may never be seen in a cinema. To you, is it like cinema is the place where you like to see your films or do you like to walk past because in the netherlands you're not supposed to close the curtains so you can walk in the evening you can walk down the street and see what everybody's doing in the house which i think is charming and you can see what they're watching on television and if they're watching your film if they're watching that's nice but to you is it like all it's all the same or you like the cinema well i think it's a different question do you want to have um control over your film do you want to make a film that is maybe not suited for a streamer you know if a streamer gives you carte blanche you know why not but i'm not sure if they do, especially not for first-time filmmakers. Have you been approached or offered? No, but no, no, no, not at all. I don't think I fit. But it's also up to you, you know. It's hard to decide. But I think I get, I have made some films that were kind of commissioned and they're not on my CV. And I didn't even go to the premiere because I thought, well, it was interesting. But it doesn't feel the same. And there is this intrinsic joy of making something that is really yours that can't and then I don't and then I want to make a film that I would like to watch myself I think that is my only criteria and then you know and I don't think I will fit with you know big Amazon or whatever screen because it's just not what I want. And I saw a lot of beautiful films also during this festival and I was like, yeah, those films, they won't fit either. And those are the films that influence me. And it's maybe more consolation than what I tell myself as a consolation, but maybe also as a kind of reminder why I make films. I think sometimes it's better to have one person who is really deeply affected by your film than have millions watching it and forgetting it. But in the end, it all boils down on what you, as a person, want to make, what gives you the most joy in doing what you want to do. And that goes for everything, every art. It's up to you to choose. I think we watched the same film yesterday, The Human Hibernation. Yes, yes, I was thinking about that as well. The Conradella Castro film, which is a million miles away from Netflix, and anybody watching that would, you know, but again, you can sense that she had that feeling when she was working with the cows and the raccoons, and if you haven't seen the film, you're wondering what we're talking about. But it was obvious there that this had to be seen in a cinema. You know, you couldn't watch it on a phone. And also, coming back to your question about cinema, I just love to be in this black hole, you know, watching with other people. And it's an experience, you know, I feel sad so little people nowadays get get into this experience because it's so interesting and it is not you know people think it's elitist or whatever it's but it's always different but we learn and i need it as well we learn from amsterdam because in in austria and vienna we have non-stop uh kino abo which is the you buy 20 euros and you can see as many films as you want this was stolen from the Dutch idea and it works so people really go to cinemas but you know I like it when it's on the festivals and people say like oh festivals you know in the end for your film it doesn't really you know those 20-30 people here and there it doesn't really you know those 20 30 people here and there it doesn't add but i don't it's it's not the same uh kind of uh what you say focus people have it well you know when you see things on tv you know when i watch things on tv i just always walk away and you know we're all so bad at doing it and too many distractions and then you have a different experience you know i think my best experience one of my best experience was uh i just started film um at school and then i went to wortendam film festival and i saw a film of this uh yes i didn't know who he was. And I watched it and I was really irritated by this, you know, very slow filmmaker. I thought it was all very pretentious. And then the film stayed with me. So I was irritated. I wanted to go away. I couldn't go away because there were people sitting next to me. And still there are images from that film that I see as a memory of my own. Was it mother and son? No, it was Elegy from Russia. And there is like this black lake with snow. And there is this child who is breathing. And it's still, I think that I experienced them it's not a film so so the line between film and your own experience becomes blurred and if you re-watched it you might find it was very different from how you remember yeah yeah probably probably probably but that is what film does and and and when the line is being, that you really think that you experience something that is really yours, that is, you know, what we're seeking. Isn't it? Of course. I mean, this is why we bother having a film festival after all of these years. And we still sit in the dark and the tickets are selling, which is nice to see. But I want to ask about DocMakers, because I noticed that a lot of your earlier films were made with Zeppos and various other companies. And then you helped to set up DocMakers? Yeah, it was a very funny experience. So 2011, we had Occupy, Occupy Amsterdam, Occupy New York. And I was just wondering why nobody was making a film about Occupy Amsterdam. And I quite randomly, from friends, colleagues, we were four filmmakers. I said like, come on, let's make this film together because they're a collective. Let's be a collective, make this collective film. And then when we were shooting it, we were really good at organizing it. And then we thought, okay, maybe we should start a collective with four filmmakers and we have one producer. And we're now 10 years further, or well, no, 13 years even. And it's still, it's very successful in the Netherlands and it just feels different from having a producer you know we are the ones who chose her kind of she works and she we have Ilya Roman she's amazing amazing producer and but the thing is that she produces our films and some other films and we all feel of course you know it's our company so we should take care of it, take care of her. But still, it's different than, you know, going to a producer and asking, how can I make my film? And it also works because it's not that we're all very indie filmmakers or something. We're very different. And that makes it work as well. But it's more that you feel solidarity with each other. And solidarity about how you also want to be paid. But also what the film is about. And we all know also a lot about really the producing part of filmmaking. But that helps to be together and it feels like a house that we want to live in and the funny thing is like you know when you have like this sometimes we had like this financial advisor and said how big do you want to become and how much profit do you want to make so they and we said well no we want not a house to rent out to make a profit with it, but we want a house to live in. This is our house. We want to live in it and we don't want to grow too much. We want to stay as we are. And has it been the same original four all the way through? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it was a coincidence we were all women and we had a dutch sound man who also worked on this occupy film and he was just so he so not blended in so but so he he was not part of the collective anymore and now we're only women and it was not on purpose but it works yeah and once once you've established this, I mean, as you say, you couldn't imagine going back to a private company. Yeah, we're not that different in a way, you know, and it's not that you can make a huge profit anyway with filmmaking. So on the other hand, I got a lot of respect also for other documentary producers, but it's just a way that you need to go and ask a producer oh can i have insight in the financial side or what do you think about my film or you know whatever it's it's you know when i sign a contract it's like zappers film but also dog makers but then it's it's different uh gives me the uh what, the opdracht, how you say, the assignment to make a film. Commission. The commission, you know. I gave myself the commission. They, you know, it's something is not right about that as well. But with Dogmakers I can, you know, handle it more than I could. And the success of her, like, at the box office. I mean, how much of that do you get to see? And then I could. And the success of Herlach at the box office, I mean, how much of that do you get to see? Because obviously the cinema owners take a big chunk and there's a distributor. There's a distributor. And there's all these different elements. There are funds that has to be paid back. So a little comes back. So it's, I don't know, it's like some percent, but it's not much but the good thing about the Netherlands is that we have not a bad financing system so especially not when you also have television money and so, well it would be nice if it would be more but it's okay but if you start, you know, as I see many documentary filmmakers they have to pitch their films like 20 times on all this fora and go to festivals. And then only they start to work and they really need to make a profit. But having said that, their films are usually more widely seen because they already have been to all this pitching for us so that's the downside of having a good financing system that you don't need to pitch I mean I have friends who spend their lives pitching and pitching and pitching and you say maybe you'll make a film at some point ah well we got the next pitch so it's and it's nice to go to these pitches they give you nice food they put you in a nice hotel you meet nice people you go to some nice city and you know much nicer than making a film I mean maybe they should make a film about the pitching I do want to ask you about the Dutch political situation but where is time for questions from the audience because we've had a nice talk but maybe somebody is burning a question don't be shy theutch political situation how do you see it specifically because obviously the dutch you know the last election the far right got a lot of votes all this yeah and traditionally the far right and right-wing parties are not hugely in favor of culture or public broadcasting and all this so the ecology of dutch uh sort of filmmaking which has evolved in this weird way over the decades you as somebody that's kind of in the middle of all that do you think it's resilient enough to withstand the worst that might happen or do you really fear for the next few years I'm not sure but they can really, we had already a really bad situation with culture with a former minister who really cut i think 25 percent from the cultural budget and now the same can happen again and i'm just not sure how you know of course you know you cannot you know cut all the institutions but you know it's it's hard to predict what will happen, but it looks a bit bleak. On the other hand, I think, you know, they cannot just, you know, things go always much more slowly. So, and I hope in the end they just cannot make, you know, they will not be in power. Well, I don't know. Maybe I'm in denial because it's so bad, this situation. But I'm really bad at, you know, talking about politics. Maybe if you bring it and sort of, you know, you do have a child who is 10 years old. I mean, do you have conversations with the child about these sorts of things? Because obviously, like, the Netherlands that you were born into, well, Russia that you were born into has had some changes since those years, and the Netherlands has undergone rapid changes. And is this the kind of thing that you talk about with your child, or do you keep the child in a nice, happy space? No, well, the children uh children news every day so he is aware of the situation in gaza and uh you know everything that is around and and and the wars and things that are going on and also in the netherlands so they're really that we have like great children tv and they explain it in a way that they should also explain it to grown-ups. So I watch it with him. So yes, no, he's not... I wish I could help hold him more in a kind of childish world, but he's really keen on watching TV and they talk about it. It's like, I need to watch the news because tomorrow on the playground we're discussing it. So we said, no, no, no, you get too excited. You have to have a good night's sleep. And I said, no, but I need to. So I don't know, a really, really serious school. So he is aware, but he's not so much aware. Well, and this Wilders, he knows he's a bad guy, the right-wing Dutch guy. Well, and this Wilders, he knows he's a bad guy, the right-wing Dutch guy. From what we see of the Dutch educational system, and in this festival we had Miss Keats' Children by the La Tastas, which is my favorite Dutch documentary of the last 10 years. Lovers' Potatoes is my second favorite. But we see Miss Keats' Children, and this is what looks like a fantastic education system the netherlands has again this might be unthreatened and there could be all this but like you know your your son goes to a good school and has a good situation so education which is always it always comes down to education everything comes down to education it seems as though that at least is is something which the netherlands is keeping a Well, let's talk about this later, because it's not as you think it is. Yeah, we have massive problems, but I think many countries have them. And I think education system also fell in the trap of this neoliberalism, and we have to get out of it. But that's a different discussion. I think the whole of the Netherlands should get out of that trap. I just believe when I see a film, I believe it. I'm terribly naive. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, but this Jufkite is amazing. And there are fantastic teachers and there are fantastic schools and there are a lot of not fantastic things as well going on. Yeah, I think the Finnish system is now the best. Yeah, they have 100 100 literacy in finland yeah um this is always the worst question to ask to a filmmaker what is next after hello oh the worst question yeah something comes out of this i'm um i'm not sure but i i was i i the starting point is so i have a lot of ideas but the starting point is, so I have a lot of ideas, but the starting point now is, but don't get me, you know, maybe it will never take wings. We'll switch off the live stream at this point. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's the best thing. It's, I want to go together with my very old friends. They're Ukrainian, they're from kiev they are in berlin they fled uh the war and for the first time in two years they want to go back to see what how their city has changed and i think like dana linson dana linson wrote and then i was like oh yes that's true that that the films i made are are classic and essayistic at the same time. And I think I like this classical approach a bit, you know, as a starting point. And then you just go off to some other place. You mentioned Dana and her text is available on the website. There's an extract from it here. But if you want to know more about... And it's a compact text. She manages to cover your work in quite a short period. So she's quite mirroring what you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she said yesterday to me, because she re-watched all the films, said now, it's actually now that I need to write this essay, but I need more words. And now I kind of get into it. So I think the nice thing that your friends and we are aware of is that, A, you're maybe the best person to make this film. We know it's going to be a good one. And B, you'll do it in 90 minutes, which is really, I mean, to make a wonderful film is wonderful. And if it can be done in people's lives these days, I mean, they watch endless TV, but they say, oh, the film's three hours. Oh, I couldn't watch that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 90 minutes is already too much for many people but well whatever maybe we should make only short films like five minutes long or 10 minutes yeah well we have the vienna shorts festival coming next month but yeah as i say i think it's uh if if i had to get anybody to tell a story you'd be definitely top of the list so i think watching the films has been educational, informative, illuminating, and it's opened my eyes to your work. And we look forward to the next 27 years as your oeuvre continues to grow. Please join me in thanking, saying Dank u wel to our guest, Alena von der Horst. Thank you.