THRFM Teacher Education Radio Austria Das Studierendenradio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich THRFM live aus dem Studio in der Huemerstraße. Wieder mit interessanten Studiogästen heute. Und einer unserer Gäste ist aus Portugal. Das heißt, wir werden die Sendung diesmal in englischer Sprache abwickeln. Und ich wechsle jetzt in die englische Sprache. We do that in English. A very warm welcome to you all. You come from different countries. I think I forgot the name already, but we have here one colleague who has been in the studio quite often already, and probably most of our viewers and listener will know her. Claudia Farnwald, very welcome here. And you also, I think, are responsible for why the others are here now or kind of yeah somehow you have to take the microphone when you speak that's very important yeah yeah yeah I'm often the problem yeah and and and we have here I am Sara I'm from Portugal did you ask where I'm from I'm from Portugal. Did you ask where I'm from? I'm from Porto. We were talking already. Very nice. Yes, yes. And home of the Porto. The Porto one. Hi, everybody. My name is Eva. I'm from Berlin, Germany. And I'm also involved in the project with the two of those. And yeah, I'm a guest now in Linz. I'm very happy to be here. Well, great. And I'm very sorry that we have to do this with cable microphones, which involves the switching all the time. But as we have this interference with the radio system of the police over there, there is no other way just now. Otherwise, we would always have a cracking in the sound. Yeah. So what brings you here to Linz this time? Well, it's Claudia's fault I'm here in Linz. I'm here for a project meeting and also for a gathering for the Network of Service Learning here in Austria that is promoted by the university. And the SLEED project is a project that aims to talk about this service learning through civic engagement and also to promote democratic competences while doing this kind of project, service learning projects. So I'm here from Portugal, we have more partners from other places in Europe, so we are a quite diverse group and it has been quite inspiring also to be here and to learn what is happening in terms of service learning in other places in Europe besides the one that I'm based on in Portugal. So that's what brought me here. And you're working for an NGO. Did I understand that correctly? Yes, I work for Nucleo. That is an NGO. We work a lot with teacher training, we support schools, we try to bring innovation to schools in Portugal and all over the country. We are based in Cascais, that is very near Lisbon, but we have collaborators all over the country. And Eva, you work for an NGO as well? Yes, so we are basically the same organization, so to speak, for Germany. So we are also an NGO and we work with teachers. We offer teacher education and we also try to implement the idea of service learning or the concept into Germany, into the system. And so we work with different ministries and talk to them and try to implement that into teacher education and teacher training so that this concept can get implemented in different schools all over the country. So, Claudia, you actually are not from an NGO because we, as I just yesterday received a letter about my 25 years working for the Austrian government, obviously we are working for a kind of public body, so to say, as being a university college. So thank you, Christian, for inviting me today and for being here. And you already did a short introduction, but for those who maybe do not know me, my name is Claudia Farnbott from the University of Education Upper Austria and we are also partners in this project about service learning for democracy in Europe it's in a you funded project and these projects work that like this that some usually that some educational organizations like universities or also schools. We have the German school in Athens also on board and NGOs are working together for a special period of time. We will work for two years together in one project and we are moving around Europe. We are partners from Austria, Germany, Portugal, Greece and Romania. And so we move a little bit around all over Europe in the cooperating countries and we met the last time in Qashqai and this time I am honored to invite our project partners to Austria to Linz and that's the reason why we are all here. We have a project meeting for developing a summer school, which will take place in Athens this year. And we are also doing some reflections on our webinar, which already took place within the project, the webinar for teachers all over the world, school leaders all over the world, NGO interested people who are interested in promoting democracy and in promoting service learning for democracy. Several questions come to my mind immediately, but one very important one, I think, is what is service learning? The term service learning, because we have many listeners, viewers who might not even be involved with education. So maybe could you or one of you give me or us at least a little kind of introduction. I mean, learning for democracy is clear, but not clear, but clearer. But what is service learning? Is that a method? Is it a didactic concept? It's all of it, I would say. So the original contact comes from the US the original terms service learning and it's a kind of method to combine the curriculum with engagement in society so that's a very broad definition so you get together at your school with your students and talk with them what is a real need that you observe in your school in your city that you want to address a problem something you want to make better and then you brainstorm with the students which partners can we work with to make this a better, yeah, make this project something that we can better the society. So for example, they can look around something they don't like at their school or their surroundings or their way to school, some problem they identify. And then students and teachers work together to brainstorm what solution could we come up with with which other people can we include some ngos for example work together with homes for elderly people for example or homes for homeless people and then come up with a solution to the problem and incorporate the curriculum so to speak so for example they can come up with an project about the environment and then include natural sciences so the curriculum and include that and turn it into a project to improve some for example an environmental issue that the kids discovered and then improve it throughout their learning experience. Is there anything you want to add from your perspective? So maybe just because we have a German speaking audience I think here service learning is also known in German and German speaking countries as Lernen durch Engagement. And that also gives a little bit of the meaning or I think of the concept because it really means to be engaged in society, to participate in society. And the core concept is also something like campus community partnership or a school community partnership just to bring in new ideas and improvements for society. And this idea of engagement, that's in the German noun for this concept of service learning. And how do you see it? I mean, if I look at my life, there is a shift. When I was young, I don't think there was any doubt that our democracies could get in trouble. Nobody thought they could. It was something we were absolutely sure about. That will stay forever. So there was a development and improvement. We've reached one level, and we never go back. So now, actually, there are not many days when I don't wake up or not many evenings when I don't lie in my bed worried. So what happened? That is a very big question, Christian, I should say. I suppose so. But I will tell you what we are trying to do. I'm not sure if we are going to solve the problem, because this is a very big problem, but I think that education may help. And this is what we want to do, is to give meaning to education, to help students and teachers to change ideas and to respect, to be respectful to the ideas of others. And sometimes this implies to compromise. And democracy is very much that, to compromise. And sometimes we are not very used to compromise to things. So to involve different stakeholders, like we're trying to do in service learning projects. We are trying to involve NGOs. They have their perspective. We are trying to involve parents. They have their perspective. We are trying to involve students, other organizations, the municipalities, other organizations. They all have their perspectives. And trying to bring that to education, trying to give meaning to education, to make education broader. More than just learning a subject, we are actually applying something. And we are bringing change to the society. If this is going to have impact at a long term, we do hope so. So it is our goal also, goal as a project to talk about democratic competences, to talk about critical thinking, to talk about values, to talk about all of those things that are very important to education. And sometimes like an informal curriculum that we cannot see and that we have to bring to school, we have to bring different perspectives and we have to talk about it and we have to act about it and we have to see what the problems on our surroundings are. So this is how we manage, how we want to contribute to that. So that's such a big question that you have made us today. Well I think you're right because because I think, beside being at home, or with friends, school is the place where young people spend most of their time. So what they experience there is probably crucially important. And I was mentioning it already in our pre-talk, I'm not totally sure how far we actually are. I can only speak for Austria here now. I know the Norwegian schools a little bit. And I norwegian schools a little bit and i think they're actually a little bit ahead of us concerning this as far as i can see it yeah how teachers deal with students and students are able to deal with teachers when there is disagreement yeah because that could also be i mean of course it's service learning you said focuses on problems pro a little bit outside of the classroom as far as i understood yeah involving other kind of players yeah but often like there is a problem in the classroom yeah and can that be solved in a democratic way so would you include that in your concept that we kind of create a different culture in schools so um when we talk about service learning or there's all a bit of a role reversal or there are different roles. So in this kind of learning concept, the teacher is not, you know, the authority figure. But you can think of it more like the whole group is a team and everybody takes over different roles in this kind of learning and they don't look up at the teacher and are like, oh, teacher, tell me or say, oh, teacher, you're stupid. But everybody is somehow on the same level and they agree on rules in the project. And so participation is a very important term in this concept. So the students should learn to participate and step by step take more of their own decisions also in the project and in service learning, which of course relates then to society. So it's a means to help the students be democratic citizens, so to speak, because the teachers step down a little bit, step by step, step further down, and the students step by step take more and more responsibility in the project, which is good for them. They have more opportunities, but they also have more duties in the project. And so this is the way this method addresses the fact you just mentioned. This might be an important aspect too because for many people it's just very convenient to step back and to blame others for not being able to speak up. But it's actually maybe sometimes just being a little bit lazy. I mean, engagement also means probably work may i add something to this question if service learning helps to solve also problems within the classroom so maybe as if i pointed out because of role changes and and of also a new school culture within the classroom but i think there are other methods really approaching this inner circle of school. For example, like having democratic speaking or mediation. There are conflict solving. There are other methods and approaches for it. I'm more focused on these problems within the classroom. But the main idea of service learning is really this opening schools out for society. So the idea of being part of society, and you also mentioned the importance of schools as important organizations and actors within society. organizations and actors within society. The famous philosopher and educator John Dewey, who is one of the forethinkers of service learning and of democratic education, he called schools as embryonic society. So I think that's the idea from the very inside of the classroom with different approaches of democratic learning and yeah giving also the opportunity for participation then this opening of the whole school towards the society and that's where service learning takes place mainly from my understanding. And it can be also an advantage to take topics like environmental topics or so beside like just classroom problems no um i mean so what keeps people from participating in a democratic society beside being lazy sometimes uh probably as i realize it and we just have a student criticizing the university strongly on social media i was mentioning it before. And I had offered kind of dialogue. And she writes back that she thinks she will get bad exam results if she speaks up openly, which kind of shocked me a bit because then I suddenly started thinking, is it still such a society we're living in? But obviously, I do not think so and i never had the experience like that yeah but obviously people there are still people who think so so the second hurdle could be fear of disadvantages fear of disadvantages would you say that yeah that you kind of scared that you have like it's harder to get the job or things like that even even i mean this student obviously has completely irrational fears because she she is afraid of not getting a job as a teacher in austria now which is basically impossible because austria is so longing for teachers that it's even it's probably even irrational yeah but obviously it must come from somewhere so what do young people experience in our society do they experience still situations where they actually have negative consequences for democratically speaking up what do you think maybe also like a little overview of Austria, Portugal and Germany. It might be different. That's where actually service learning also can help. Because it always starts in this classroom. So it is from the classroom point of view about some problems that start in the classroom. And that can be a problem that can be addressed. How is my voice? Can I be heard? Is my voice valuable for the society? Maybe I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking, and my experience is telling me, that my voice has not the same value that other voices have. What can I do? How can my teacher, my classmates, organizations around can help me on that? And I think this is something that we need to empower our students to do. They need to know that their voice counts. And they also, and this is something that I always say, they have to give some meaning to their learning. Because students often say, why am I learning this? And if we have people listening to us that they are teachers, they heard this often. Why am I learning this? So this is a way of giving meaning to learning that you are learning this so you can have a voice. You are learning this through this method. so you can have a voice. You are learning this through this method. I'm not saying this is the only method, but through this method, you are learning how to have a voice, how to speak up, how to reach out to competent institutions, and this is a way of doing it. So you are empowering your students to have actually democratic competences to to try to solve the problems that are meaningful for them and for their community I think that is a crucial point that I mean if I if I do not think that whatever I say has an impact or not, this is actually probably will decide our future in the end. I mean, when too many people think that whatever they do, they don't have any influence, then we are not a democracy anymore. And I can see that looking around me. I mean, this kind of extreme rise in running after people with giving simple answers and kind of, I think there was some recent study in Italy where, wasn't it 70% were saying they actually think that a strong leader would be better. I mean, in Austria it's a little bit less, I think, but it's still very high, yeah. And when I hear that, I'm just getting very, very worried and it starts causing me nightmares. So I think actually we reached a point where we are far beyond we can afford doing a little bit i think we need i mean what you're doing as far as i see it unfortunately i'm not the educational minister but i would say it's probably the most important topic in school overall it should have the most attention and we can skip like lots of other stuff for that just because you were talking i was thinking when you are asking for a strong leader it's because you don't think you have a voice so you are quite saying that your voice is too you are diminishing yourself so you are saying that this is not enough, I am not enough, my community is not thinking enough. So it's a concern. It's a concern to all of us. But it should be also for the people that are asking for a strong leader because they are not thinking about the impact that that could have on their own voice on their own life so it's it's like you said we need to start in the education and you we need to really try to understand what this kind of surveys are saying to us and are saying to our political system are saying to our educational system we need to think further we need to talk about that in schools too what does this really mean to to ask for a strong leader why do we need the strong leader why do we need that don't we have other ways of doing those things that we need for our society i mean all uh kind of all alarm bells should be ringing © transcript Emily Beynon People say she's crazy She's got diamonds on her soles and her shoes Well, that's one way to lose these walking blues People say she's crazy. She's got diamonds on the soles of her shoes. Well, that's one way to lose these walking blues. Diamonds on the soles of your shoes. She was physically forgotten, but then she slipped into my pocket with my car keys. She said, you've taken me for granted because I please you Wearing these diamonds And I could say As if everybody knows what I'm talking about As if everybody here would know exactly what I was talking about Talking about diamonds on the soles of shoes Thank you. guitar solo She makes the sign of a teaspoon, he makes the sign of a wave The poor boy changes clothes and puts on a aftershave To compensate for his ordinary shoes She said, honey, take me dancing for his ordinary shoes. She said, honey, take me dancing, but they ended up by sleeping in a doorway by the bodegas and the lights on Upper Broadway, wearing diamonds on the soles of their shoes. And I could say, oh, And I could say And everybody here would know what I was talking about I mean everybody here would know exactly what I was talking about Talking about diamonds I do that. Thank you. guitar solo People say I'm crazy I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes, yeah Well, that's one way to lose these walking blues Diamonds on the soles of my shoes Thank you. Chana lalala... Ich sehe ein anderes Problem, das aus der Medienwelt kommt. problem uh coming like from the media world uh i see that we as media also have a kind of great responsibility and i'm not totally sure if we always are aware of that yeah i mean it's easy for us because we don't need to get money like from kind of it doesn't depend on how many people watch our programs. But being under that extreme pressure financially that more and more people want to pay less for information and are not aware that when they don't pay for information that the money comes from somewhere. But then complain that they are kind of manipulated. So I think I get a little bit the impression that it's very difficult. Like if I look around, participation in a democracy is also being a politician. So we need politicians as long as we have this kind of democracy, which elects representatives. Yeah. So when I look around among the people I know, and that's quite a few, I'm not sure if there is a single one who would say, I'd like to become a politician. How is it in your cases? Do you know anybody? I mean... Yeah, but if you ask people if they like to participate in society, maybe the answer is quite a different one because it's about them and about their own problems, their own issues. So I think politicians somehow are regarded as being very far away from the individual situation, from the daily life problems. And that's the problem with democracy. You asked about it before. We have a noun or a concept which means we are living in a time of post-democracy. That means we have the institutions and the institutional democracy, but we often don't have this feeling for the people that they can participate, that it's about their lives and about their surroundings and their society. And this is a big change which happened during the last 25 years since the beginning of the new century, and we are living in a time of big, big transformation everywhere. We have the globalization. And this has an impact on schools and educational institutions. And regarding schools, we have since 25 years now these big assessments, these international assessments and these competitions, which somehow it shows about the situation in schools, but it also put a high, high pressure on schools. So I think a school is a very narrow space for living democracy, but many, many teachers, talking from the point of research, we have some empirical results from Austria from the last ICCS study. So it's about democratic and civic engagement. And a very high amount of the teacher answered that they don't regard schools as a place for really learning about democracy, which is alarming, I think. Absolutely. Especially in Austria, democratic education or political education is like a cross-curricular principle so everybody could use it, every teacher could use it for different topics but the result of the study is that many many don't do it because it's not mandatory and so they are a little bit afraid of touching it. And because, yeah, they have a big distance from politics and from politicians. And maybe that's a little bit... I mean, as you explain service learning to me and I think about it, I think you are an answer to the problem. Yeah? Because you want to show ways where actually students, teachers, schools can have influence and that would be the first experience in that direction or a concrete step in the right direction so what could we do to make that stronger? I mean you are here, that's one step. So I hope many, many people kind of take up the idea. But these are also, I mean, it's important if we have viewers, watchers, listeners now who actually like the idea and say, well, this is really something great. What do they do? Who do they address? Who can they talk to? Yeah, I mean, we can always dream right so um one vision i have is that schools should be like a miniature society a miniature um democracy and um have a school as a certain microcosm uh where kids really democracy and learn, as you said, that they are heard. So in Germany, I worked at and worked with schools in underprivileged areas and also schools that really don't have any budget at all. And there the students always told me that they're not heard. So they said something like, hey, miss, the teachers, they don't care about us. They don't care that we have, for example, a recreational room or that we have tables and stools that are working. And they did not feel heard. And they were, most schools, no ways established that students can come up and raise certain issues and that the teachers and headmasters work together with the students as a certain microcosm, a mini democracy to at first improve the situation at the school, the learning atmosphere, and then open the school and see what they can do in their city or surrounding area of the school. So that's somehow my dream or vision that a school should be a microcosm for a society and that democracy should be learned in every subject, in every hour and minute of the school. And it's hard to establish when you have to prepare students for their diplomas, their degrees. And we talked to teachers yesterday and they said, oh, we want to implement concepts like service learning, but it's hard to do so because there's so much on our agenda that the students have to learn to get their diploma and then sometimes you get a tunnel vision and are open to concepts like that but somehow don't find the head or mind space to find the twist and turns to implement that at your school? Well, I have personally a very clear opinion on that. Go ahead. There is nothing more against learning or the biggest hurdle for real learning is diplomas, exams, grading. Yeah. So I think finally, after so many years and decades, we should kind of realize, and as far as i know there is a lot of research about that as well and i've seen a lot of good examples with my own eyes and one is for instance in germany in wiesbaden the helena lange schule which is a school which is also situated in a kind of difficult area kind of and was i think it was the worst school of germany and became one of the best just by changing the concept completely yeah so i think and i challenge you a bit here now probably service learning only might not be enough yeah it might need more it might need a rethinking of school as it is now, that we kind of fulfill the responsibility of really, really kind of keeping our democracies alive. I would say that you are right. Because I think service learning is a step further. Because most of the schools and most of the curriculums we have made in our project a study about entry points for service learning in different curriculums in the different countries involved in the project. And we have found that democracy is there. So the topic is there. In Portugal, for instance, we have citizenship and development. We learn about political systems. Students learn about inclusion, migration, a lot of other important topics linked also to democratic competences. The question is that it's different when you learn just because you learn for an exam or it's different when you are applying that knowledge and you are making changes in your own environment. So this is where service learning can help. Can help also because it is a challenge to evaluate, to assess this kind of projects. Normally, schools are doing, and there are several schools in Portugal and elsewhere that are doing a wonderful job. But then in the end, they are going to look at the marks. They are going to look at the exams and they are going to say to your project, well done. Well done. How can you value? So this kind of service learning project is also challenging our way of assess what are what do we really want to assess what are we really valuing in our education so you are right this is a step further we are here to challenge somehow to challenge teachers to challenge students let's try this, to challenge students, let's try this, and to see how can we go further from this. And I think I'm going to compliment. Yeah, maybe I can add something, because I agree service learning is not the solution for all the problems of our democracy of today, but I think for schools and also for other educational institutions like universities for example it's a first step for moving forward and for empowering and enabling students and young people and i think that's what's important also for the future yeah if you lose your hope already at a young age, so what can you expect from the future? So also giving the future somehow back, not only the voice, but the future. And when we did some research about implementing service learning in schools, most of the answers were mentioning time and space. We need more time, we need more space, and that's our problem. And if you mentioned before, we talked to teachers yesterday and it was, we had a network meeting here of service learning schools in Upper Austria, and then we had the chance to talk to school leaders, to educators, and they said it gives us power, this network or this this talking together and discussion together so i think these are many different steps for implementing service learning as one approach for uh promoting democracy and uh educating democracy that's not the only one but it's one which students and also schools like like a lot as last as i know from research or from also the developments during the last years, because it's coming from the US, but in the German-speaking countries it had a big increase. So I think maybe it's just the time for starting with service learning. And yeah, I think this empowerment for the next generation, that's also a very, very big challenge and a task for educational professionals. And so enabling also teachers for daring more democracy in their classrooms and in their schools and school leaders, I think that's worth just to try it. I have an important interview tomorrow for my next documentary film and it's with a political scientist and she's also the leader or the ceo of an opinion research institute and we had a little pre-talk on on telephone and she said well the main voting or election motivations are fear anger and hope there was no no participation in it there was no i want to have a word in it so when there is anger it might be already a bit late i mean she said that anger sometimes doesn't necessarily need to be negative only because without anger we wouldn't have women's voting rights and we wouldn't have unions and whatever. I don't know about fear. Fear, I think, is basically only bad. Hope is good, but still there is something missing. Participation is missing. I want to have a word. I want to design my future. I want to be part of the design of my society. I want to be part of the design of my society so obviously we are already far beyond of feeling personally responsible or having the feeling we are so we delegate it so do we need a new form of democracy? democracy. Cynhyrchu'r ffwrdd o'r ff'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas Cynhyrchu'r cwmpas again And the violence causes silence Who are we mistaken? But you see, it's not me It's not my family In your head, in your head They are fighting With their tanks And their bombs And their bombs In your head, in your head, they are fighting With their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns In your head, in your head, they are crying In your head, in your head, zombie, zombie, zombie What's in your head? In your head Zombie, zombie, zombie Oh Eo Another mother's breaking heart is taken over When the violence causes silence We must be missed again It's the same old tea since 1916 In your head, in your head They're still fighting With their tanks and their bombs And their bombs and their guns In your head, in your head they're dying in your head in your head, in your head Tell me, tell me, tell me guitar solo Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion. Девочка-пай Das ist eine Frage, die wir vielleicht nur versuchen müssen, um die nächste Generation zu vorbereiten, um darüber zu reflektieren und auch einen eigenen Einfluss darauf zu haben. just to try to prepare the next generation to be able to reflect about it and also to have some own impact on it. And I think that's a societal discussion which has to be led. And it also would be important to put it more in the focus of the educational and the political system. Because also from interviews with teachers, they said, we would like to have more recognition of what we are doing, and we are missing this. We are doing this so alone if we try to promote democracy in our schools, in our classroom. And where are the others from society? We would like to have some support, some recognition, and to do this way together. And maybe that's another approach, like marketplaces and discussion forums for the future of democracy. And service learning could be a first step just to enable students to raise their voice and to participate. So in your work, you have to be very patient optimists. Can you say that? I would say, and to answer to your question, I don't know if we need a new way of doing democracy, but for sure that we need a new way to make questions and to discuss ideas. That we do need. And it's quite interesting to know how artificial intelligence is entering so much in our houses. And sorry to bring this up, we are always talking about it. But how questions are so important. Because we are so used to have answers to everything. And the question sometimes is the most important thing. So I don't know, in fact that if we need uh but that is a very good question that we should decide or we should discuss uh for sure for sure in schools that's very good i had guests once from uh there's a very interesting school project in ecuador it's called Fundación Educativa Pestalozzi and I had three girls as guests here quite a while ago who graduated from that school and that is a school that does never do exams, no grading and students can always decide on their activity independently so it doesn't mean that there are no rules like there is a rule that you kind of throw the mathematic material against the wall. There is a clear rule, yeah. But you can play football for three weeks. And the teachers told me after three weeks it gets boring anyway. And then they look for something else, you know. So if you think it like in time, we can take a lot of stress out of the school system, which we just have there for whatever ridiculous reason, ridiculous belief. And those three girls, they actually wrote me an email and said, actually, we're coming to Europe, we speak about our school experience, and if you want, you can invite us, you only have to pay the journey from our last stop and accommodation. So that's how they financed the three-month europe trip yeah and these three 17 year old girls they arrived from budapest and i also did a broadcast with them and during the broadcast because they had this kind of democratic school experience all their school life so i asked them do you know who you are? And they looked at me, and Juliana was her name, and she said, no. And I was a little bit, oh, it was life, you know, so I said, oh. And then I said, do you know what you want in life? She said, no, and she smiled, you know. And I said, did you understand my question? She said, yes, perfectly. And then she said something a little bit like what you said. Now she said, how can I know And then she said something a little bit like what you said now. She said, how can I know who I am when I always change? Life always brings new questions to me and I have to look for answers. It's a process and I like that process. And I thought, if it's those people we need, that's probably the people we need for mature societies, for mature democratic societies who do not run after idiots like that guy in America. I don't say his name now, but everybody knows who I mean. Yeah, so I think it's time. That was a very interesting program and time passed quickly, as I expected with that topic, which is so important in our time thank you so much for being here yeah Claudia Sarah and Eva and good luck for your work I hope if you don't manage to become educational ministers what I would actually dream now and change everything I hope that a lot of it gets out and many many schools and teachers jump on what you are promoting. Thank you for being here. Thank you for inviting us and our SLEED project for service learning for democracy in Europe. Thank you, Christian. What we didn't say, who do people address who are interested? Do you have an email, internet, web page, whatever? Yeah, we have a website, so maybe you can just tell them. We will also show it, the website link then. So you can find us on social media and everywhere now. And we have a website and that also features a lot of materials. So we had the webinars and a toolkit with a lot of information, like basic knowledge about service learning and it's open to everybody and everybody can have a look at the website and our project name is SLEAD service learning s-l-e-a-d-e minus europe.eu that's our website and you can learn a lot about service learning and our project there yeah and i'll take you by the word we never give up the dream okay so thank you very much for listening watching trfm today and the next one will be the third week of may and we don't know yet the topic i might come in from norway that time because i will be in Norway then. And we will have a symposium network meeting there, which is a very democratic, informal network of European teacher education institutions. Okay, thank you for being here. Thank you. Radio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich. Must have a code That you can live by And so Become yourself Because the past Is just a goodbye Teach Your children well Their father's hell did slowly go by And feed them on your dreams The one they picked, the one you know by Don't you ever ask them why If they told you you would cry So just look at them and sigh And know they love you. And you, of tender years, can't know the fears that your elders grew by and so please help them with your youth they seek the truth before they can die teach your parents well that children's health Will slowly go by And feed them on your dreams The one they picked, the one you'll know by Don't you ever ask them why If they told you you would cry So just look at them and sigh And know they love you guitar solo We don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. No dark sarcasm in the classroom. Teacher, leave them kids alone Hey! Teacher, leave them kids alone All in all it's just another brick in the wall All in all you're just another brick in the wall We don't need no education We don't need no school control Thank you.