Very welcome and a warm welcome and a nice afternoon to you all here. My name is Viltrood and I just say some brief words on behalf of the Department for Media Aesthetics. And a very warm welcome, Nadja Denton. I'm so happy that you, Sandra, managed to make it that we have you here. And before we turn to your expert lab, I would like to introduce Sandra Krampelhuber. Just a brief word on her, because I'm a big fan of what you do and your work. Sandra is a film curator, a cultural anthropologist, a cultural worker and a cultural manager. But I think most of all you're a filmmaker and I really love your films. I haven't seen the last one, but the three others, which are called Queen of Sound, 100% Dakar, and this really, oh yeah, Akra, I love that one, you know that? So Sandra is dealing and working in many fields within the art world and the cultural world and has a strong affinity, I say it in German now, to African countries, African culture, production, art production, and also African diaspora. So, thank you, Sandra, for your initiative for this film festival, Cinema Africain. And now, please introduce Nadja Denton. So, thank you, Sandra, for your initiative for this film festival, Cinema Afrikaan. And now, please introduce Nadja Denton. Thank you, Wiltold. Thank you for these nice words about me. Yes, welcome everybody to Cinema Afrikaan. Thank you very much to the Art University for this collaboration that we can hold the expert lab with Nadia Denton here. We're very happy to have you here, Nadia. And as we spoke earlier, you said, don't introduce me too much. I will do it myself. So Nadia is a film curator from London who is an expert in African film. We both, we know each other since almost 20 years, I think, because Nadia, she actually, she discovered my first film and screened it in London. So it's due to you that I'm standing here now and doing this festival, maybe. I don't know. So I hand it over to you. A warm welcome to Nadia. Thank you. And thank you to Draft TV for the live stream of this talk. Thank you. That's brilliant. Thank you so much. So a real pleasure to be here with you this afternoon. I am very much wanting this session to be a conversation between us, even though it is the quote unquote expert lab. What I want to do is ensure that you are able to ask questions and to give feedback and just to make sure that you have a good understanding of all of what I'm going to be talking about. Over the next 45 minutes or so, I'm going to be sharing inside thoughts and reflections on my career as a curator, the highlights, the things that I think are important to understand about the field of curation and indeed film festivals, and hopefully along the way to get your engagement. So before we start, I just wanted to check, how many of you are either film students or wanting to make films? A few. How many of you have been to film festivals or go to film festivals regularly? Okay, most of you. And do we have anyone aspiring to be a curator? No one. Oh my goodness. I might get a conversion at the end. Okay. How many of you are familiar with the concept of a curator or have, you know, had contact with a curator, either friends or family or anything like that? Okay. A few people. Okay. All right. So obviously, hopefully you're going to learn a lot more as we go through. OK, so just to start off. So I entered the film industry, I think there's a lot of us can say by accident. So my father, the late Menelik Shabazz, is a quite prominent black British filmmaker. And so, of course, along the course of things, I got involved with some of his film events. And one of them happened to be a film club at a venue in London called the Institute of Contemporary Arts. And at the time, they wanted to introduce new audiences and to show alternative independent films. And so I didn't really know much about running film events, but I like the social aspect. I like the idea of, you know, meeting people every month and showing a different film and having a conversation and meeting the filmmakers. So that's really how I started. And in a sense, that's a lot of what's sustained me. And indeed, that was how I met Sandra. We actually showed her film Queens of Sound at the film club. And obviously, that's a great example of how that relationship has been sustained. So for me, you know, I had no great ambitions in the film industry when I started. It was just a social opportunity. But what I found over the years of running the film club was that I really enjoyed the interaction between audience, filmmaker and myself. I loved the connection we had, the conversations we would have, the sense of community that we built. And that was what sort of motivated me each and every time to go back. And I think there's something really beautiful that happens when you go to see a film, you are amongst people who maybe have had a really similar experience of that film, maybe in a cinema, a festival, you are lucky enough to have the director or filmmaker there to talk about the film and then you have a curator so either someone like myself or Sandra hosting or facilitating that event and the kind of conversation that you can have and the kind of connection that can be formed really and so yeah that's kind of been the thing that has been a real big driver. The other thing that has been really important for me and something that I find very instructive is the idea of filmmaking for social change. So I am very committed to supporting films and filmmakers who are making content that can change society in some way, that can influence and impact people. Normally, these are filmmakers who are operating on the periphery of the industry, they're independents, they may not have a lot of budgets, but they will have a lot of strong messaging in their work. And for me, beyond making money, that's been something that really motivates me and has sort of kept me in the industry. I am a very big advocate of the idea of using film for social change. I think it's one of our most important and significant mediums of this age to be able to do that. And I think it's a wonderful device to be able to convert people to whatever new experiences or ideas or politics or cultures we may have. ideas or politics or cultures we may have. So cultural change, as I've alluded to, is a real sort of driver for me. And normally, most curators will have almost their own mission statement. So it may not be something that they make public. But generally, most of us curators have some kind of personal driver, some cultural driver, that is the reason why we continue to support a given art form or a given work and will be maybe a consistent theme in how we present programs, how we engage with audiences, etc. And certainly, like with some of the top, probably more maybe in the arts world, some of those curators that you may have heard about, you will tend to find that they have some kind of mantra or philosophy that is really important. These are a few of mine. So I, as I've said, see art as the quickest means to bring about social change and feel like film is at the epicenter of this because of the fact that it brings all of the artistic disciplines together. As I'd mentioned before, I think film is a great way to introduce people to messages and cultures that maybe they would have been reserved or they would have been hesitant about engaging with. But, you know, the average person might be willing to go and see a film for an hour and a half just to sort of see what it's like, as opposed to traveling to a different country or you know maybe thinking differently in terms of their political stance film is a quite sort of compelling and convincing way I also think that it's a great way to introduce different cultures and I'm going to go on and talk to you about my the love of my heart or my pet project for the past 10 years, which has been Beyond Nollywood and the work I've done in the Nigerian film industry. And as I've said, I think the big screen offers opportunities to travel, to go to different times and different spaces that no other art form can do. times and different spaces that no other art form can do. So these are a few of the thoughts that I had about the combined role of the curator, as well as the importance of social impact. I really do think that there is a kind of unspoken world that the curator has in acting as a bridge between cultures. So often, you know, a good curator or a well curated program will allow you to cross that bridge into another cultural experience without even necessarily realizing it or without feeling any discomfort. Because you might have the curiosity, you might have the pleasure, there might be something so compelling about the thought of crossing that bridge and going into the unknown that drives you. And to me, good curation does that naturally. I think the other thing that is a real important motivator for audiences is the idea of having a new experience. So I think it's fair to say that the average person is open to a new experience that can be accessed quite easily and maybe with a low paying threshold and which isn't particularly costly. And obviously the curator can do that, whether it be through an actual exhibition event or through a film event and so on. And I think, obviously, curators are a great position to be able to draw on their knowledge of a particular culture or different things happening in a society to bring together programs that can enable people to reflect on what particular junction they might be at a given time, at a particular point in history, etc. And then, of course, curation essentially should educate, inform and inspire. So if it's well done, it should enable people to leave with a feeling of wholesomeness, a feeling that they have learned something new, a feeling that they have been able to travel in some way mentally, and a sense of upliftment. So as a curator, I spend a lot of my time typically working with other organizations and film festivals. And there are different titles I will often get, but essentially it might be in the role of being a guest curator. So it's where I will offer my expertise on film, on putting on events, on audiences, et cetera, to a given institution or festival in order to raise the profile of that event or to assist. So most recently I was working at London Film Festival and I hosted a number of Q&As with directors. I was part of the selection committee. I selected a number of films which I wrote the copy for. So for instance, some of you may have heard about the Austrian-Somali production, The Village Next to Paradise. Has anyone heard of that? It's having its premiere at the Viennale. So that was actually one of the Austrian productions that I was able to introduce Mo and the producer Sabine. Some of you, if you are in the film industry, you might know who they are. So, you know, having that opportunity to meet these filmmakers and producers and to have a conversation with them, with audiences was obviously quite personally enriching for myself, but is also critical, those of us who are in those roles, to help audiences navigate the kind of experiences that they would have had on screen. So what are some of the typical things that you might do if you are guest curating or working with a festival? One of the key things you might do is to bring content or filmmakers to a festival that they may not have been able to access otherwise. So you will have particular connections or a particular knowledge of a cultural area and you can make those suggestions. So certainly in my work with Sandra, there were a number of filmmakers that I suggested might be a good fit to come to Linz who might be able to give good Q&As, who would be reliable, you know. And this is really important information that we share as industry colleagues to try to make sure that the event is as enjoyable as possible for the public. We obviously want to ensure that each time audiences come to the event, that they get an experience that is almost a bit better or at least as satisfying as their last one. And so ensuring that there's an enhanced experience for audiences is always important and runs through the thread of all of the administration, the planning and the organizing that we will typically be doing. The other thing that's quite important is about introducing new audiences. So indeed, I know that, you know, Sandra's work with the university is partly to try and encourage students who might be new to their courses to know about the festival and to attend and to engage and to have that opportunity to understand what a film festival could be and how they might be able to engage with such events in the future. And it's a useful way also to sometimes test feedback is to determine what might be good themes to explore as you develop your event. as you develop your event. And then the other thing that curators will do, guest curators in this instance, is to help the festival promote certain messaging. So sometimes as a guest curator, you might be better placed to promote a certain message than other people on the team because you might be more closely linked to a particular community. You might be able to communicate certain things about the festival program in a particular way that's going to be attractive. There normally might be other things and how you might be marketing or presenting that event that is going to be helpful in terms of how audiences will find out about it. find out about it. The other thing that I'm finding at this stage of my career, so I have been in the film industry now for coming up to 20 years, is authenticity is really important for audiences. They can sniff authenticity or not a mile off. And so sometimes the right engagement of a given curator with a certain skill set or knowledge can be really helpful in ensuring that people feel like they're getting the best quality, authentic cultural experience that you would want them to have. And there's a number of other things. So, you know, extending relationships, I think, as I've mentioned, there would have been research that you have undertaken maybe as a particular curator with a set amount of knowledge or experience that you can share. And as ever, each time as a curator, you work with a new festival or a new venue, it's always a learning experience. So there's always something that you take away about how things are executed, the professionalism, the productions, etc, that you can then go on to use for the next events that you happen to work on. So one of the things that has been a real driver for me this last 10 years of my film career is the opportunity or the possibility of introducing something new or fresh to an audience that might not be familiar with it. And having sort of had the basis of the previous 10 years, I have challenged myself, if you like, to try and do this as much as I can, to see how can I push the boundary in terms of what people are familiar with, what they're prepared to extend themselves to, what they're prepared to extend themselves to, what they might be willing to engage with that they may not have known about before. And I think this is one of the sort of really important points of power, if you like, that a curator has, is that ability to, if you like, push the envelope or push the boundary in terms of helping people to have a space to explore something they may not be familiar with, but have some level of curiosity. And I see this, the role of the curator is adding value, not just to audiences and those venues, but the wider society. So I've said this endlessly to Sandra, I think the idea of this African Film Festival in Linz is such a big deal, because it's so unlikely, you know, and it's really, you know, enriching, I think, the local cultural landscape in a way that surely will have its legacy in years to come. And, you know, all of my colleagues in the UK were like, so amazed that there was this idea of this feminist African Film Festival in a place like Linz, you know, and I think that's the beauty of curation is to challenge people and to say actually you didn't think that this place could do this thing but actually they can and that that event can do it and get audiences you know. So we now come on to talk about Beyond Nollywood which has been my labor of love for the last 10 years really. So just to give you a bit of background, when I started out in the film industry, I was mainly showcasing what we refer to as cinema of the African diaspora. So that's experiences of people from the Caribbean, from America, from Africa, etc. I didn't have any particular leaning towards Africa necessarily at that point. My grandparents came to the UK from the Caribbean. So I didn't grow up in an African household, so to speak. And so I had this kind of curiosity because I'd noticed with some of my Nigerian friends and colleagues who were making films that there was a bit of a trend. I thought were quite quirky films that were quite strong culturally in terms of their African portrayals, but had some interesting storytelling methods. And they were riffing off of international filmmaking styles from Southeast Asia, et cetera. So I thought to myself, let me explore it and see. So in 2014, I wrote a book called The Nigerian Filmmaker's Guide to Success Beyond Nollywood, which was really an interrogation of where would the Nigerian film industry see itself in the next 10 years. And so I kind of looked at it from a business perspective, financing, marketing, exhibition. I interviewed 70 odd people in the Nigerian and African film industry to sort of probe what could be the future prospects. So I was really looking at the industry that is referred to as Nollywood. How many of you are familiar with Nollywood? Okay, so about half of you. Does anyone want to have a punt or anyone have a go at describing what Nollywood is for those who don't know what it is or not familiar with it. What's Nollywood? Nigerian culture, culture film, brilliant. Any other descriptions of Nollywood? Huge industry, yeah. Any other descriptions? anything else that we would associate with nollywood no okay so just to give a little bit of background for those of you who are not familiar so there's different descriptions of what nollywood is essentially nollywood is a term used to refer to content coming from nigeria um there's debates about when nollywood is. Essentially, Nollywood is a term used to refer to content coming from Nigeria. There's debates about when Nollywood started, but it's widely agreed that Nollywood, the phenomenon of Nollywood started in the early 90s with the home video industry. There's a film called Living in Bondage, which really is seen to be the production that sort of made Nollywood sort of come to the attention, probably of cultures outside of Nigeria. And Nollywood takes its inspiration from traveling theater cultures in Nigeria, as well as telenovelas and sort of wider TV type production. So Nollywood really was home entertainment. It was made for people to consume within their homes. It was very much grounded within African folklore, African storytelling and realities that people could relate to on ground. And normally it's sort of characterized by being highly dramatized. It's normally sort of preoccupied with societal and family issues and typically low budget. So in the noughties, we've really seen a development of Nollywood to productions which have more financing and which have started to travel in terms of international film festivals. And certainly you'll find a lot of content on Netflix and platforms like Amazon Prime. But what I personally was interested in was all of the alternative work that wasn't really getting the attention within the Nollywood sphere. So Nollywood typically is based more on commerciality. And I was more interested in the filmmakers who were making what certainly Nigeria is regarded more as artistic films, documentaries, animation. I love art house, and that was what I also was keen to see. And so beyond Nollywood is a term that I use to refer to a particular genre of Nigerian content that generally is a bit more artistic, is alternative, and which falls outside of the periphery of what is regarded as Nollywood in Nigeria. So a lot of the filmmakers whose work I show doesn't necessarily get much support in Nigeria, often is regarded with a bit of suspicion or seen as being unusual, but which I think is really quite pivotal in pushing the boundaries of what the potential of Nigerian cinema could be. So Beyond Nollywood, as I said, a book, a genre, it's a curated program. So for the last couple of years, I have curated selections of short films, feature films, etc. for different venues and festivals, and introduced the program explaining why I think Beyond Nollywood is important, why it's on trend, so on and so forth. It's also a loose collective of filmmakers. So as I've sort of gone through my career over the years, one of the things that I have found really important and has sort of concerned me is this idea of community. How do we as curators build community with the filmmakers we work with so that relationships are sustained and so that we can have richer offerings for audiences? And so there are a loose grouping of about 20 to 30 filmmakers that I work regularly with in the sense of I'm in contact with them. We will share creative criticisms, both of my work and their work. They will give me suggestions of new filmmakers who are emerging that I should be aware of. They will sometimes even explain the things that are happening within the culture that I'm not familiar with. And I found that that exchange has been really quite enriching for me as a curator, because it's given me an understanding of the culture that I probably wouldn't have had unless I was living on ground in Nigeria. So before we move on, I just wanted to check. I'm conscious I might be going a little bit fast. Does anyone have any questions about anything I've said so far, anything they want me to expand on? No? Oh. Yes. So the book is available on Amazon in digital form. Yeah. Anything else before we move on? No? Okay. As I'd mentioned, I set myself the challenge of seeing to what extent could I expose new audiences to this content and if you like, push the boundary. form that as far as I could see didn't really have much visibility internationally or was not really much in people's awareness particularly when we have conversations about world cinema my ultimate aim really was to have some kind of recognition for beyond Nollywood alongside conversations about international cinema like that from Iran or from Korea etc I wanted people to have that awareness that there are alternative, more artistic offerings from Nigeria that are very striking and quite unusual compared to what they might be used to with the more commercial Nollywood. I obviously had the opportunity to build on my existing audiences that I had been working with on other types of events. And so I was interested to see to what extent could I convert some of those audiences, people who had come to see films maybe from America or other parts of the world, would they have that interest in coming to see films from West Africa by filmmakers they'd never heard of? Would they be willing to, you know, take that risk and to engage? And then I also wanted to see whether, you know, as a curator, to what extent I could develop new cinematic tastes. And this is even amongst some of the West African and Nigerian and indeed wider African audiences that come to my programs in the UK. To what extent could I convince them that this sort of content was worth their time and not something just to be dismissed because it didn't have big star names or things that they had previously heard of. So I'd mentioned previously the various engagements that the content has had, and it's always great to get new invites and interests from the different events that I've been at. I think what has been striking to me traveling with Beyond Nollywood is the fact that a lot of audiences haven't really seen much African cinema. And so that, for one, has been something quite major. And also that despite the fact that Nollywood is an industry of size and quite significant in terms of Africa, it hasn't really had the sort of big screen kind of visibility or airtime that perhaps it deserves or that, you know, some of us who are working in the African space may think it's had. So that opportunity, you know, every time someone comes up to me and says, oh, I've never seen a film from Nigeria before, and that was their first time seeing it, or understanding the culture has been so important to me. And, you know, one of those sort of cases I make for Nigeria and beyond Nollywood is just, you know, Nigeria is such an important country and the cultures from it are so significant, not just because of its population, which is over 220 million. And, you know, the fact that the youth population is at least up to a third of that. But just, you know, in recent years, we've had a lot of cultural exchanges from West Africa, whether it be in terms of literature, writers from Nigeria, in terms of food, in terms of African fashions, even African visual artists, etc. And so I do feel as if there is a moment where Europe at least is becoming more exposed and more familiar with West African culture. And certainly that this is a wave that Beyond Lollywood and the filmmakers and the content could ride on. So some of the methods that I've used in terms of introducing new audiences to Beyond Nollywood have been wide ranging. And these are things that I suppose are tools of the trade for any standard curator. So definitely when I've written up the copy for a program, when I've presented a program, it's been very important to explain what Beyond Nollywood is. In some instances, I have to go back and even explain what Nollywood is for those people who don't know it. So just sort of starting from the basic level, not assuming that people know what the given thing is, but explaining and giving some substance to language used. I also tend to give comparisons in my write-ups. So often I will refer to the fact that Beyond Nollywood is Nigerian new wave cinema or that it's world cinema. So using language and terms that people may be familiar with will that give them some kind of form of comparison. As I said, I will do an extended write-up of the films and, you know, what happens in the films and why this particular form is important. And just to sort of, if you like, try and give people that sense of curiosity about why it might be nice to see the film program. Image use, as you would have seen from this presentation, typically has been very important because I've realized that people will rapidly engage with the images, probably much more than the text. And so putting images in a particular way that might evoke their curiosity or make them want to learn more has been really key. And particularly using images in a way that has been very different to how image use is done in traditional Nollywood, which is definitely much more based on posters and not maybe as visually arresting as some of the content produced by the Beyond Nollywood filmmakers. And advocacy has been a very important role so in addition to introducing the film programs doing extended q and a's and having opportunities to have conversations about the content why beyond nollywood is important and if you like trying to convert people to understanding why this might be special or or how it can be beneficial to them as a cultural experience. And then obviously through all of that, just trying to engage, extend awareness through industry colleagues, and obviously doing events like this and keeping that conversation going. So last year, I presented a shorts program of Nigerian content at Dresden Short Film Festival. of Nigerian content at Dresden Short Film Festival. They pulled together what I thought was quite an interesting trailer, which we're just going to watch probably about half of. But I think it gives a good sort of summary of how I engage with the festival and how I typically will present Beyond Nollywood. I'm sorry. I have been here at Pleasant Film Festival for two days. It feels like there's a lot of dedication and attraction to the films that are being shown, and a lot of audiences who are going to engage. Such a beautiful program. So much for, you know, so much for creating. so much you bring out with so much you've created we'll send this that fight um healthy mess we respect his uh new content as well as being precious back to somebody in water pot uh you know from the past My name is Nix Prohander. I'm from the Sparrows Free. It's part of the focus program from anywhere in the sense that they relate so much to what borders do, what all these powers do, to families and to participants and to individuals. The online book can be a short interpretation of B-Way cinema from Nigeria. I showcase alternative work that perhaps isn't so well known in the Nigerian and West African space. It's really inspiring to me when I'm able to introduce new audiences to a given work, types of work, and they are able to, you know, go on that journey with me as the curator. Then they get it, and you see some kind of transformation of them or within them, and they perhaps have a perspective or a control understanding. Thank you. Yeah, I find it useful. I'll just show that trailer because it kind of gives a description and a bit of a visual summary of some of the programming I've done with Beyond Nollywood. So we're now coming towards the end of the presentation. I just wanted to check, did anyone have any questions or comments before I continue? I'm always mindful of the things that I haven't said or any gaps. you. I'm always mindful of the things that I haven't said or any gaps. I'm not using the microphone. I'm always mindful of the things that I haven't said or the gaps that I may have left. Yep. Sorry, can you live? So yeah, that's a great question. So what I find, so yeah, curators, and if you speak to any of them, will tell you curation is not well paid, unfortunately. But what curation tends to do is it's marketing for other types of work. So some of my more lucrative work, I know those organizations are interested in me because of my curation. So for instance, for the past three years, I've been a reader for Doc Society. Any documentary filmmakers, I don't know how many of you are familiar with that funding organization. They are the administrators for the British Film Institute's funding for documentary in the UK. So I'm one of the assessors for Features Fund, previously the Shorts Fund. We have a Climate Fund. And I know the fact that I have an experience of African content is one of the things that made me attractive to them. I also, in recent years, have been a screener for Sundance Film Festival. Obviously, I mentioned I work at London Film Festival. I also guest lecture at London Film School in Exeter University. So what I found typically is that it's almost like marketing a window dressing for other types of roles. Because you hold that cultural knowledge, often people may want you to be involved on particular projects because you can bring that experience to bear. but i mean for me the thing that sustained me really is the cultural satisfaction um and also the opportunity to make that cultural change i the word that I feel is valuable and important has been, you know, in and of itself, its own reward. Any other questions or comments? Yeah. Okay, so the mic is going. okay so the mic is going yeah did you have any experience in directing films or in the film industry and how did you kind of get your base for the people you work with sure so um no i didn't um have any experience of making films and funnily enough I've been asked this a lot. I have no desire to direct a film. I think what filmmakers do is amazing. And it's on another level technically that I don't understand. But I enjoy the appraisal and the critiquing of the work and presenting them to the public. I have no desire. What has been my real motivator is that social element with the audience and the culture. I don't know if you heard the point I made earlier was that my father was a filmmaker. And so I had exposure to the film industry through him. And it was really an opportunity that came up voluntarily to run a film club at a venue in London. So I started out the way that a lot of curators start out where it's kind of voluntary or, you know, it's kind of where you maybe do piecemeal bits of work. And then it's over the years that you acquire the experience and you have a specialism that is perhaps more in demand or where people will then seek you out and want you to come to festivals and to talk and to do presentations, et cetera. But I'm not going to lie and say that it's a quick win it is a long road but it has to be something that you feel desperately passionate about and where you think you can bring a perspective that is key I mean one of the things that I have to say that I have that you know championing something as like Beyond Nollywood is that my name is associated with it so if you tap if you type in Google Beyond Nollywood is that my name is associated with it. So if you type in Google Beyond Nollywood, you'll get all the work I've done. And it's unusual for a lot of us working in the creative industry to become known for a particular thing. It's very hard. So that is something that curation can offer you. If you're able to finesse or to have a certain perspective or experience, you can become the person that becomes a knowledge holder or that can open doors for other creatives coming through and as i've been talking about new audiences okay got another question sorry um i don't know if i remember correctly, but I think I remember that you've given out another guide for British filmmakers. Yeah, Black British filmmakers. And I'm interested if there are some interesting points if you compare Nigerian filmmakers and British filmmakers. That's really interesting. filmmakers and British filmmakers? That's really interesting. I mean, I think aside from the cultural drivers, I think that the big thing that is different is the infrastructure. So obviously in the UK, you know, Western Europe, we have, you know, film bodies, we have film universities, we have a structure that enables a filmmaker, if they're lucky, to progress through the ranks and to make work. In Nigeria, it's completely opposite. They don't have those structures. A lot of it has been made by individuals, structures to sell and distribute films, to showcase films. And so the industry in Nigeria has developed in a very different way, which I don't think is comparable. And I think the social and economic circumstances under which filmmakers make films in Nigeria is just so different because of, you know, the things that you have on ground happening in Nigeria. You know, just even on the basis of the fact that, you know, because there's inconsistent electricity, a lot of the filmmakers have to provide their own, you know, generators, their own electricity, which is something that, you know, a filmmaker working in the UK wouldn't be thinking about. You know, things like health and safety on a production would be very different in Nigeria compared to what is expected in the UK. So to me, it's been a real testament to the creativity and ingenuity of Nigerian filmmakers and that's why it's always been so exciting when I see these wonderful films that filmmakers on ground are making with so little I think to myself wow this is the magic of film as a form we really can do anything but yeah I think they're so different I don't think you can really compare them aside from the fact of being a creative. So you're well known for Nigerian or Nollywood films. Beyond Nollywood. Beyond Nollywood. Beyond Nollywood films. Yeah, I think I'm regarded with suspicion by Nollywood. Beyond Nollywood films. Yeah, I think I'm regarded with suspicion by Nollywood. Okay, because there was, to be honest, when I came with the term Beyond Nollywood, there were a lot of people who thought, well, why are you talking about Beyond Nollywood? There are some people in Nigeria who argue everything Nigerian is Nollywood, and they don't think there should be something separate. So I'm not going to lie to you and suggest that, you know, there are people in Nigeria who think, oh, you know, that you know those there are people in in nigeria who think oh you know that what you're doing is representing and it's just a small group and i i'm always very clear about that i have a very particular group of art artist filmmakers i would say or alter filmmakers who i yeah and if you compare this beyond multiple films, so documentary film and other types of films, like the Kenyan or Uganda film industry, so are there similarities? Do they deal with similar topics, circumstances, and so on? And also South Africa, so which industries are really big on the African continent and as you mentioned you have your roots in the Caribbean yeah and so how is the other film industry over there sure so um I I mean one of the reasons why I felt like Beyond Nollywood was worth my attention is because I don't think there's any other type of movement coming from the African continent like what I've seen with Nigeria. Now, of course, Nigeria has the advantage of the numbers. It has the advantage of having had Nollywood, which has been so strong. And it has the advantage of a strong, vibrant culture, popular culture. So even if we think about Afrobeats and the various things. In terms of other film cultures, I mean, I think for a period, we had some strong documentaries coming from East Africa. So like Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, that area of East Africa tends to operate like a block, if I can say that. And in fact, we have like a handful of really strong filmmakers like Emil Shivji, whose film Tug of War is showing at the festival tonight. He's like an example of a, you know, really high level, like international filmmaker who just happens to be African, happens to be Asian, you know, but is making world class films. So I think, and obviously with South Africa, it tends to have maybe more of a stronger culture with like comedies, but there's still obviously post-apartheid, there's still challenges and rifts within that industry in terms of the content and who gets to make the content and the stories. Like in my fantasy, I've always wanted Beyond Nollywood to be like Iranian cinema. I've always wanted it Nollywood to be like Iranian cinema I've always wanted it to be like some of these art films probably more from the east than even Hollywood like a lot of the filmmakers aspire more to a Hollywood model but I just think when I observe the practicality of Nigerian the cultures within Nigeria I feel like places like Iran and those sort of parts of the world probably have a similar way of expressing culture on the big screen in terms of folklore and just the things that are and aren't allowed in the culture that I think are more comparable. In terms of the Caribbean, I would say that the industry is very small and still developing. Yeah, interestingly, I was at a film festival, the Third Horizon Film Festival in Miami, which is a Caribbean film festival. And we had a two-day summit or two-day think tank talking about the prospects for the Mojo and Film Industry. And I was one of the facilitators for the workshop. And there's still a lot of challenges because of the way that the Caribbean operates as a region. Small islands, lots of different languages, French, Portuguese, Spanish, you know, from island to island. And obviously financing. The advantage Nigeria's had is it has its oil wealth and it's had certain resources that has allowed it to be able to produce a certain amount of content. With the Caribbean, it's still a struggle. There's obviously individual productions, but not anywhere near like what Nigerians are able to enjoy. So for me, it was a no-brainer, Nigeria, because of the size. And also once you work within Nigeria, then opens up the rest of Africa. So yeah, in terms of film prospects, it's definitely one of the stronger places. Yeah, in terms of film prospects, it's definitely one of the stronger places. Any other questions? Okay. Maybe I missed it, but could you talk numbers? How big is the Nollywood industry and is Beyond Nollywood able to kind of benefit from these? The numbers? Yeah. So that's a very good question, but one that I struggle to answer in that numbers is very, it's quite controversial data and numbers in Nigeria are quite controversial. I mean, even down to population. So the numbers of Muslims versus Christians, the numbers of particular ethnic groups, it's a very contentious area. And there are question marks over whether the stats produced are accurate. And similarly, because Nollywood is almost like a cottage industry, where you have individuals who have their own outfits and production companies, etc. There often isn't transparent sharing of data. So you will get sometimes box office reports, etc. But you're never certain if they are completely accurate, because of the fact that often the people releasing the figures have a vested interest in saying, well, this film was this successful, or that film. And I think I have always placed myself more in the arena of cultural impact rather than the numbers. So I'm much more of an advocate for what cultural change can we bring rather than the box office. And it's left me poorer. And probably I haven't had some of the experiences I would have if I was more commercially inclined. But I've always had this thing of, I don't want people's money, I want their heart.'s money I want their heart if I can get their heart I can have them maybe for a lifetime if I get their money that's just a transaction they'll come and go so I've always been much more focused on what is the cultural conversion like what feedback am I getting from audiences after what impact does it have for the filmmakers in terms of their recognition you know and it's just small things like I've had an affiliation with the Berlin Allee in recent years. In 2019, I had my first sort of proper engagement with them. I did a presentation at their film market about Beyond Nollywood. And in subsequent years, they have shown some of the work of Beyond Nollywood filmmakers. they have shown some of the work of beyond Nollywood filmmakers. And I can't help but think because of that exposure, you know, the fact that I was there talking about it as an ideology as a theory and giving some substance to it, you know, it kind of paves the way. So yeah, I've definitely concerned myself more with that. But there are various reports that have come out. UNESCO did a report about the African film industries and they had a number of figures. But I'm always a bit wary because, of course, statistics tend to date so quickly. And then there's always these questions about how and how much. But I think the thing that Nigeria has always had going for it, broadly speaking, when it comes to the numbers is obviously the size of the population, the size of the youth population, the size also of their diaspora, the fact of the cultural reach to other West Africans. There's, I suppose, broader indices that have tended to favor Nollywood. And to the second part of your question about whether beyond Nollywood, filmmakers have benefited from Nollywood, certainly they've benefited from being part of a wider culture. So things like the popularity in recent years of Afro beads, you know, the fact of some of the African prints like the one I'm wearing, you know, these are more visible in Europe. are aware of some aspects of Nigerian culture has helped. But some of them have complained that being associated with Nollywood has been a disadvantage at times because there are still elements of the international film industry that see Nollywood more as her home video industry, or not content that's suitable for the big screen, or not content that's cinematic, which, you know, in certainly in a lot of areas I could understand and agree with. Any other? Okay. Well, I love it how you understand your role as a film curator, for example, to make audiences wider. So I want to know if you have experiences with teenagers as well. Yeah, that's a really good question. So generally the experiences I've had with teenagers have been when their parents bring them. And often it's sometimes parents want to bring their teenagers as a cultural experience. So when it comes to the Be Your Naughty Wood programs, it might be a case that they want, they see as like a cultural event to sort of help them understand their culture. That is assuming they're of an African background, African cultural background. More broadly, I haven't done programs that necessarily address teenagers. So one of the other things I do, if some of you are aware, is I'm one of the co-hosts to the EFM's Insights podcast. And we did a podcast last year about engaging younger audiences. And I was the one who led that podcast. And one of the things that became very clear is that to engage teenagers, you need to have them involved with the programming. is that to engage teenagers, you need to have them involved with the programming. So at every stage of organising, they need to be engaged. I've been switching it off accidentally, thank you. The understanding was really that when it comes to engaging teenagers, it's really about ensuring that they feel that they have been involved with the film selection, that you're engaging them with the marketing. So understanding where they go to get the information as opposed to we, the administrators, where we think we should be marketing. The other thing that came out quite strongly was this idea of film education. The other thing that came out quite strongly was this idea of film education. So I know in some parts of Europe is quite strong where maybe like in primary school and secondary school, there is some exposure, you know, through some lessons. But a lot of the time it tends to be extracurricular. But there are still a lot of blocks. So one of the things that came up in the discussion was the fact that a lot of coming of age films are often certified, sometimes older than the teenagers. So a coming of age film, about a 15 year old might have an 18 certification. And then, of course, families sometimes have the problem where they may have a child in primary school and a teenager. So what film do you take them to that will satisfy the whole family and the age? So those are like in terms of practical like understandings or learnings. That was some of the sort of top lines that I took away from the conversation I had with the guests we had. And we had a young person who's based in Germany and he would attend independent film festivals. But he had that curiosity and he was part of youth groups that would go to film festivals. So I think it's quite a difficult audience to engage because the other thing is whether they have expendable income. Some teenagers, you know, have a certain amount of pocket money they get and what choices they can make about which cinemas or which films they go to. with cinemas or which films they go to. But yeah, I think the bottom line really in terms of engaging teenagers was that they have to be involved with the event. They have to be part of the organizing and the marketing, et cetera. How do you facilitate the communication or the connectivity between filmmakers, artists, scriptwriters, you know, that whole outside of the audience, you know, that spectrum? So facilitate in terms of them working together with the industry? Yeah, working together, the community, that community. With the industry. Yeah, working together, the community, that community. So I think a lot of it is personal in the sense of the relationship building. So some of it is quite basic, like you set up a WhatsApp group, you introduce, you know, so you might, so in the case of like, even with Cinema Afrikan, there were two filmmakers who in fact arrived today, Simisola Kande, who made the short film Queer Nigerians, and Lilis Soares, who's a cinematographer from Mamiwata. So I basically just introduced Sandra to them online. Often it comes from the particular creative, the director or the screenwriter, maybe specifically saying to me, Nadia, can you introduce me to such and such? So sometimes it's relying on their own initiative. But I think essentially when we have events, it's trying to create space where people can network against one another. So whether it's like the dinners or the drinks parties, trying to ensure that people get the chance to know, well, this person's in town, how can I get in touch with them, etc. Something that has been done in the program that Sandra has done, which I also try to do, is having very detailed bios. So like having, you know, the details of who the talent in attendance is, their bios, their pictures, so that you could look through the program and know, oh, this person's at the festival, and it make it maybe easier to approach them. But yeah, generally when I have my Beyond Naughtywood programs, they tend to be quite intimate. It's only a handful of screenings. And normally we sort of try to have an environment where people can socialize and people can talk and get introductions where they want. But yeah, for me, typically it tends to be more informal through recommendations. I'm not very active on social media, but I am a big believer in email lists. I've built up very significant email lists over the last 10, 15 years. And so I tend to try and send out very informative newsletters. And so if I'm promoting a film, there's always a very detailed bio of the filmmaker, the things like their social media handles, et cetera, so that if people want to follow up and be in touch with them, they can. Any other questions or comments before we come to our final moments? So I think there's no further question. Okay. So I want to conclude. Thank you so much for your time and attention. So really, I think I've sort of made these points throughout, but it's really just to reiterate that, you know, the role of enrichment, I think, is one that cannot be understated and perhaps is maybe not recognized as much as it could be in our society, but really is quite key. in our society, but really is quite key. As I said, I think in these times where there's less and less funding for some of our creative endeavor, particularly from us operating at the independent end and with various cuts and so on, the idea of how we can work in community and share connections, share skills, share contacts, I think is going to be important for us to be able to sustain. So even, you know, this wonderful relationship I've had with Sandra for nearly 20 years, you know, where we have been able to share information and to, if you like, cut corners to be able to work together to, you know, achieve things. And the social impact, you know, I think is key in this time where we're in such a troubled world. And, you know, the more that we can convert people to good causes and to be in alignment with, you know, positive, strong positive, strong, cultural and creative values, I think is important. And yeah, I mean, I think it's for me, it's all fundamentally about how we live as a humanity. And I have to say, like, film is a thing that I think has enabled me to build so many bridges with people I otherwise would have nothing in common with. You know, film is such an enabler, it's such a universal language. And it's been such an educational tool for me to understand other people and their perspectives, and to just have more empathy in the way that I exist. So yeah, that's me and the role of the curator. So just to say, I know some of you may not have had a chance to ask a question, or you may indeed go away and think about questions that you wish you'd asked. I'm always happy to be in touch. Those are my website details. There is a contact page on my website. So you're welcome to ping me an email, join my mailing list if you want to hear about some of the other things that I'm doing. But yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.