Terra FM. Teacher Education Radio Austria. Das Studierendenradio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich. Herzlich willkommen zu einer neuen Ausgabe von Terra FM und PHTV, wie immer aus unserem Studio in der Huemastraße. Heute allerdings aus einem ganz besonderen Grund nicht live, sondern vorproduziert zwei Tage vorm 1. Mai. zwei Tage vorm 1. Mai. Aus dem folgenden Grund, es findet diese Woche das Crossing Europe Festival in Linz statt und am 1. Mai werden die meisten von uns, die diese Sendung produzieren, eben bei diesem Festival anwesend sein und nicht in diesem Studio hier. Das hat unter anderem auch den Grund, dass unser Anchorman, der Christian Kogler, einen Film gemeinsam mit Eric Schierl gedreht hat, der beim Crossing Europe Festival die Weltpremiere hat, eben am 1. Mai. Und deswegen sitzen wir heute am 29. April, wenn ich mich nicht verrechne, in dem Studio mit zwei ganz besonderen Gästen. wenn ich mich nicht verrechne, in dem Studio mit zwei ganz besonderen Gästen. Wir müssen heute auf die englische Sprache ausweichen, weil Andrew aus den USA ist. Mache ich das richtig? Genau. So, let's switch to the English language now. Thanks for coming, to both of you. Thank you. Hello, Andrew. Hello, Lauren. There is a reason why you are here in Linz today, this week. I don't even know when. Yes. You came yesterday, didn't you? And you're staying? Through Friday. Yeah. Okay. And there is a very nice reason why you've come to visit us. Would you like to... We're very excited about the Crossing Europe Film Festival and the premiere of Christian and Eric's documentary Throw Your Heart Into the Sea. Thanks for mentioning it. I haven't been out. We should also do it in German. Yes. Werf dein Herz ins Meer. Perfect. Perfect. Outstanding. Danke. But yes, we are speaking in English because of me, because I have not practiced enough since I've been in Berlin. So I'm from Louisville, Kentucky, and we've been in Berlin a little over three years. But maybe you can introduce yourself first and then I'll get more into my story. Sure. Yeah. So I'm Lauren Gottworth. Pronouns are she, her. And Andrew is my partner. We've been together for 10 years. And one of the things that we, the exciting things that we've done is that we've moved to Europe and we live in Berlin. And that has helped to springboard Andrew's work with the International OCD Foundation, also shortened to IOCDF, which I know he will talk about. But he is basically in charge of the international portion of the International OCD Foundation. So he is in touch with people all over the globe, helping them to work on advocacy to talk about his experience with OCD. Yes. That's great. I just have to, just from my understanding. So Lauren, you do speak German. Yes. But you are also from the US. Yes. And you are living, both of you, in Berlin right now. Yeah. So just, could you explain it to me a little more? Ja, das kann ich auch auf Deutsch sagen. Als ich so 13, 14 Jahre alt war, wohnte ich außerhalb Berlin für ein Jahr. Meine Mutter war Deutschlehrerin und sie wollte ein Austauschjahr mit meiner Schwester und ich machen. Und das haben wir mit den Fulbright gemacht. Und zu dieser Zeit, also das war 1999, 2000, sie hat so einen echten Austausch gemacht mit einer Englischlehrerin. Sie wohnte in unserem Haus, wir wohnten in ihrer Wohnung. Ich war auf Gymnasium. Und ja, also wenn man so tief rein ist, dann kann man echt Deutsch lernen und dann habe ich das auch auf der Uni studiert und deswegen war Deutschland sehr hoch auf unserer Liste, wo wir hin, also umziehen könnten. Ja, wunderbar. Ich habe dich vorher you before, so I just wanted to know. Ja, und ich spreche ein bisschen Deutsch. Ich muss üben. Üben ist mein Umlauf. But we can do this after the show. Yes, we'll practice. If you want to practice, we can try. Yes, if people are listening on May 1st and they come find us in the evening or the next morning, we can practice our English and German together. That's perfect. My English and your German. Yes, yes, yes. We can do that. Absolutely. There's a need to practice English. Yeah. But I was going to add on to what Lauren said. So a big part of the film is OCD Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and as Christian likes to remind me that in German I learned it in German as Zwangsstörung but we feel like that word that phrase sort of translated back into English isn't quite right. And it also has a lot of stigma around it. I mean, OCD does as well, but looking to move towards using OCD as the phrase even in Germany and in other parts of Europe. But also, as Lauren mentioned, she's,'s I think a bigger fan of myself than I am in reality but she said I manage the international part around the world not entirely true I do run the international networking and advocacy group so playfully called INAG which in English to nag someone is to like pester them so we have OCD advocates from around the world. So it can be people who are therapists, psychiatrists, but also people who are, have firsthand experience with OCD or loved ones, supporters, all that. And so we meet twice a month online and we organize OCD awareness walks. And we had a Stamtisch here in Linz last fall. Yes, I saw that actually. I mean, I was talking to you before the show about stalking you yesterday on Instagram. But now that you mention it, I've already stalked you a few months ago. But unintentionally. I've already stalked you a few months ago. Oh, yeah. Okay. Unintentionally. It was like Christian told me about you and something we are going to talk later about that you guys are in his documentary. Yes. And then I was like, okay, I gotta know. I have to know who is this Andrew and who is this Lauren. So I found you on instagram and at this point of time i was or kind of i found this project and i wrote christian hey what is this about and is this for everybody or is it i don't know only for for people who are involved in this project and he was like how did you how did you even find this and he was like how did you even find this? And I was like yeah I was talking to him. You're a researcher, investigative journalism. I am actually somehow. But yeah the Stammdisch is something I already have heard about. Yes and it's something we hope to continue. So a lot of credit to Christian that the International OCD Foundation, IOCDF for short, organizes a lot of OCD awareness walks. But as we look outside of the U.S., we find a lot of countries and cities and cultures where an awareness walk isn't that common or it's not so much of a thing as much as it is in the U.S. It's quite common, race for the cure and um i think it's also walking i think here walking is such a way of life so having an awareness walk is just kind of like okay but i i walk 10k i mean we know christian walks 10 000 steps a day and for an american that's not super. So that's why the awareness walks are a big deal. Yeah. I think so. And so he suggested Stammtisch, which I was unfamiliar with and I'm learning about. And it was really, really lovely. Both of them in Linz and Vienna. And I think it's something we'd like to do again this fall. Can I also add something? Yes. I think that something about the Stamtisch, like you asked, is it for everyone? And the whole point of the work that he's doing as an advocate is to really raise awareness because not many people see or know what OCD is like except for OCD sufferers or people who are loved ones of OCD sufferers. And I, um, we had a lot of people come to those Stamtische and they're like, what do we do? And something that Andrew and I have been able to do a lot in the U S is organize people, bringing them together and talking. Um, and I think that's really just what happened at the Stamtisch here that, I mean, I think we sat for four hours and the majority of the conversation, I think 80 to 90% of what we were talking about was OCD and how they find treatment, how you find people who can support you in that, how your community can support you when you're going through, um, a rough time or a bad spell of OCD. Um, yeah. So I think that was the whole point of doing these advocacy events. Um, there was the first one in Spain this year and we went to Ireland and UK, um, and had some advocacy events there organized by Andrew. So, yeah. Yeah, this sounds lovely. So you'll have to join us this fall. Yes, I asked Christian if it would be possible for me to join when you were in Linz. And he was like, oh, yeah, I don't really know right now, but I think that you can definitely come. I don't really know right now, but I think that you can definitely come. And I'll just, I think he was talking about asking somebody if it would be all right. And I didn't have time this day anyway. Yeah, I think there are some times where it's good to have like a safe space for those that experience the disorder so we can talk openly about it. But I think those are usually like group therapy or, you know, various set spaces. I would imagine, and I speak mainly for myself, but I think other advocates as well. Most of these other events, we really do want the public and people that don't experience it or people that are curious. We've had some people come that say, you know, I've not been diagnosed, but I think maybe I have it. And that's really great. And then particularly if you have someone in your life that also manages with OCD, then it's really great for people to come check out these events. You want to talk about how you figured out that you might have OCD and led to your diagnosis. Do you want to talk about Charlie? Sure. Does that work for you? Yeah, of course. Yes. So as we've talked about, I do have OCD. Lauren does not. But I've had it as long as I can remember since I was a little kid. But I didn't know what it was. So for many years, I just knew something was off and I was struggling. And my parents are wonderful parents and constantly tried to find what was wrong. And, you know, over the years, like, oh, what, you know, is it allergies? Let's get you allergy tested. Is it mono? I don't know mono in German, but just mono. I don't know it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The kissing disease, they call it in the US. But so they tested me for that and, you know, tried so many different things for my wellness. And we just didn't know. We didn't have the language or the understanding of what it was. a freshman in college, I was having an even harder time and my mom encouraged me to go to the university counselor. And so I went in at that time thinking maybe I had ADHD. And so I filled out these intake forms and they said well it looks like you have depression and anxiety and so then so that was 2009 over the next 9 to 10 years I was just treated for anxiety and depression but I was still struggling a lot so I dropped out of university at one point I was in and out of three different mental hospitals, lots of therapists. I think I averaged about a different therapist every year, lots of different medications. I did AmeriCorps, which is this like volunteerism and service organization in the US. But I dropped out of that early. Yeah. Civil defense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. service organization in the US, but I dropped out of that early. Yeah. Civil defense. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I worked at a summer camp and dropped out early of that and, um, was working, um, for the state government also with AmeriCorps and also just got to a point where I, I could not work full time anymore. So I was, um, So I was struggling every day. Every day I was quite miserable. And not because of the work itself. I had great colleagues, a very supportive boss who knew about my mental health. And I just was having a hard time. So I voluntarily went from full-time to part-time and did that for a few more months. And I was still really, really struggling. Went part-time to not working. And so at this point I had stopped working, dealing with that I can't seem to sustain any job, any volunteer work, any schooling. I really needed some help. So thankfully I found a new therapist, psychiatrist that did a new intake assessment. And this is something that we work with in the advocacy space is that often a lot of therapists who are well-meaning also don't fully understand OCD. Go ahead. Is there a difference when it comes to the diagnosis between therapists and psychiatrists? Because what I know is that you do have to, that there needs to be a psychiatrist to kind of diagnose. Yeah, yeah. So I think in the US it's different than Germany and Austria. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, diagnosis. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think in the US it's different than Germany and Austria. Okay, yeah. So in the US a therapist tends to be the person you just talked to, but they can also make diagnoses. And then the psychiatrist is typically the person that does medication. This particular office I went to did both and they had a longer intake assessment, which because it helped me so much, I am now an advocate for as well to really check and differentiate between depression, anxiety, trauma, eating disorder, psychosis, OCD, ADHD. Because a lot of the symptoms show up in different places. Yeah, and they can be missed, they can be misunderstood. And the difference between the genders too. Yeah, it didn't pick up on the mygaloans, the difference between the genders as well, and I think different ages as well. And so thankfully this psychiatrist, therapist uh diagnosed me with OCD um which I'm at what age like um let's see I was 27 I should have this memorized by now I think it was 28 yeah okay I think 28 um and so but that also means that uh and this is something we talk about with advocacy as well, that the average time between first experiencing symptoms of OCD and diagnosis is between 14 and 17 years, which I've always thought that's an odd way. Why not just average those? But they're two separate full research studies. One came up with an average of 14 years, one 17 years. And for me, it's more on the side of like 20 years between my first symptoms and diagnosis and treatment. And why do you think it is so difficult to get this diagnosis? Because OCD is just not known enough? Yeah, I think because it's not understood um that is a great question and thank you for setting that up because that is something we want people to know more about um people that might have ocd people that support those uh and therapists in the medical community as well i think a lot of like a lot of people me included back in the day, when I heard about OCD, I thought about being very clean, very organized, not liking germs, having things in color order or size order. And a lot of what I knew was from the TV show Monk. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. I wasn't sure if it was something I should mention. Which you're going to explain about inner monk? Ich war nicht sicher, ob ich das erwähnen sollte. Du sprichst über den inneren Monk. Ja, also der inneren Monk ist... Kannst du das in Deutsch erklären? Ja, klar. Also viele Deutschen kennen das als innerer Monk. Und dazu kann es sein, dass diese Gedankenstörung ein bisschen misdiagnostiziert sein. Also Andrew hat keine Tendenz, um diese Ordentlichkeit zu haben, dass alles so in einer gerechten Linie ist. Very messy. Ja. Und deswegen hat es ihm so lange gedauert, dass er das erkannt. Und ich habe erwähnt von einem Freund von ihm, dass wir also wir sind Boulderer und eine Boulderer hat einfach mit ihm geredet, ja hier sieht das mein täglicher OCD aus. Hier sieht es so aus, wie das bei mir kommt. Also ich habe immer lange Gedanken, also laufende Gedanken und die sind nie langsam, die sind nie ruhig. Und dann Andrew hat einfach gesagt, hey, das hört sich mehr more like me than Monk. We just recently rewatched some of Monk where, you know, he can't shake hands without having to wash his hands. And Andrew's tend to be more ruminative thoughts. So yeah, is that what you wanted me to say? Okay, so I think we are going to play some music right now because Andrew or Lauren, I think one of you is going to get a mic. Yes, thank you. So, Technik Team, wir bitten um Musik. Under the sky blue dawn I am here and I'm open Is it magic? Is it real? How good this feels Lying on sun-kissed ground Confusion surrounds I'm falling and I'm free Take me where you want me to be Take me where I'm supposed to be Close your eyes Let the colors be the light I'm ready and I'm open So come on, shades my mind Close your eyes Let the darkness be the guide I'm ready and I'm open So come on, change my mind This is how to change your mind Slowly my thoughts get thin Concentration, limbering Oh, don't fight it, I won't fight it Cause I like it here, yes I like it Filling my lungs with air To deepen awareness of who I am on the inside. I see all my shadows in light. They scare me, my shadows in light. Close your eyes. Let the colors be the light I'm ready and I'm open, so come on, change my mind Close your eyes, let the darkness be the guide I'm ready and I'm open so come on change my mind this is how to change your mind flow, flow, flow I see the million masks of God Filling me with questions Of what is real and what is not Slow, slow, slow, slow All the while comes to a halt Surrounding me with hassles And I know it in my heart There's a knowing in our hearts Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, Close your eyes, let the darkness be the light I'm ready and I'm open, so come on change my mind Close your eyes Let the darkness be the guide I'm ready and I'm open So come on, change my mind You just have to change your mind This is how to change your mind Oh, this is how to change your mind Herzlich willkommen zurück bei Terra FM und PHTV. Heute zum Thema OCD, zum Thema Crossing Europe und zum Film unseres Einkommens Christian Kogler, der ihn gemeinsam mit Eric Schierl, seinem Co-Regisseur, gedreht hat. Und unter dem Namen Wirft ein Herz ins Meer läuft. Red hat und unter dem Namen Wirf dein Herz ins Meer läuft. Wir sprechen heute mit zwei ganz wunderbaren Gästen in der englischen Sprache. Wir switchen jetzt gleich in die englische Sprache, weil es einfacher ist für Andrew. Danke. Und sehr gerne. So, I think I can already switch now. We were just talking about OCD and your journey and how you were diagnosed and the symptoms is it called symptoms I guess so yeah that's the only word I would know yes yes yes but you can be my teachers today yes so I'd love to learn. Yes, we'll practice. Perfect. Yeah. So I'll just let you continue, I guess. Sure, thank you. So finally, at age, I think we decided 28, I got an OCD diagnosis, which for many people, receiving a diagnosis finally is actually very relieving. You know, it's not that in that moment you got the disease or disorder, it's that you've had this for so long and didn't know the name of it. And so finally hearing, oh, all this trouble and all these problems and distress that you've been experiencing, it has a name, there's a community of support, there's treatment for it. And that was just very, very relieving. And a lot of things made sense in this framework of OCD. Yeah. It's almost like the Rosetta Stone for someone who feels like they're speaking a different language. And when you find out what it is that you have, it just like unlocks all of these things that you're like, this is that's what it is that's what it is yeah actually i i haven't thought about this until now but i do have a friend uh she went to school with me she's in the u.s right now um and i told her about christian because we talk about our studies and so on about our private lives and about what we are doing vocationally so um i told her about christian and his um his ocd diagnosis um and she was like yeah that's what i've got too and i was like oh i thought you have adhd and yeah i thought so too but then i had um then I was being tested again for this and that. And actually, I do have OCD. And I was like, I didn't know about OCD until, I don't know, two or three months ago. And I didn't know that one of my closest friends was diagnosed with it. And it was so interesting to talk to her and talking to Christian sometimes because it's just so unknown. That's the feeling I've got. And I don't know where I wanted to go with this. No, that's okay. Similar to what you were saying, there are people who will have what's called comorbidity where people can have, like Andrew just got diagnosed with OCD, but then also just got his ADHD diagnosis, which has really been helpful for him to get the correct medication that actually works with both set of symptoms, because we know every person is unique, and every person is their own little snowflake in the most wonderful way that like the meds for OCD weren't necessarily helping his ADHD symptoms and if he only did ADHD meds I think they would affect his OCD symptoms but now his psychiatrist knows both and yeah that's very helpful. So then it gets easier with the medication. And I can't quite remember the stats, but if a person has OCD, they are more likely than the average person to also have a second disorder. So if you have OCD, you are likely to have either depression, anxiety, ADHD, something else as well. And there's a lot of actually commonality between OCD eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorders. So BDD. And I can get into that a little bit as well. But I wanted to go back to something you said about not knowing that your friend had OCD. I think that's quite common because I think a lot of us, when I talk to other people experiencing, we've tried to hide it for a very long time because some of the behaviors, so some of the obsessions are quite disturbing. So right now there's a discussion among advocates about sort of how intrusive thoughts are trending on TikTok and Instagram. Yeah, they actually are. that there's a there's a difference in language between an intrusive thought of oh i loved this thing at the store and i bought it the intrusive thoughts one versus intrusive thoughts being you know we're on the fifth floor and you know walking by the balcony oh what if i fell off the balcony um or what if i for some reason punched Lauren in the face during the interview or what if a meteor came through the building and killed us all right now. Those are intrusive thoughts that we manage. Yeah, were you going to say something? Yeah, actually I was because now that you mentioned social media, I do have the impression that especially the younger generation, I do have the impression that especially the younger generation, like speaking of 14 to, okay, what's young? 14 to let's say 20, 23 year olds. I think the language they are using is sometimes a bit misleading and takes the depth of it. Yeah. Like, especially with the example of intrusive thoughts, I think that's something younger people kind of use without really thinking about it, and then it takes it. Yeah, I think word choice has, words obviously have weight. And we were just talking about that yesterday with colleagues that the German word Zwangsstörung has such a negative connotation to it. Definitely. And in English, it is a disorder because where on Instagram you see intrusive thoughts, I went and bought a boba tea. But it didn't disrupt your life. It didn't cause the disorder that OCD can cause. And like Andrew was describing how he had to cut down his hours, but more because the things that were going on in his brain and the way his brain was treating him in that moment was causing such distress that he couldn't focus on anything else. The easiest one for me to say is he would sit in his office chair and then his zits would start to hurt his bones and he would get up and walk around. And for neurotypical people, you can walk around and then go back and sit down and not think about it. But for Andrew, it's constant, regular movement. He's described his thoughts as an auctioneer's thoughts, that they are regularly running and saying things so quickly and loudly. Have you seen an auctioneer before? Have you seen an auction? Oh yeah. Where they're like, hey, who's going to take it? We're going to take it. Andrew has said that that's what's going on in his brain at all times. Where like, I have peace at very many points where I'm just like, I don't hear anything. So yeah, our regular daily conversations are like, this is what's going on in my head. And then sometimes Andrew will do an example of what's going on. Yes, I can do so now. But of course, I'll speak in quick English. But I was thinking about, oh, should I give more examples of what goes through my head? I should give some examples of intrusive thoughts. But how negative? I was going to the bathroom and I thought, what if I just walked in naked? Well, that would be bad. And then, uh, just now I was looking at my wife. I saw her boobs. I shouldn't be looking at boobs, but she's my wife. So it's okay. Oh no, I've mentioned sexual things twice. I shouldn't do that. Um, now my mouth is dry. I need to get some water, but would it look bad if I drank water on camera? I don't know. No know no it does not yeah and like I playfully plugged my ears while he was saying that but I can do that but he has no way to stop those thoughts from racing in his brain and so the do you want to talk about your treatment about your ERP yeah yeah so I think you know mentioning that we talked about the obsessive part, the O of OCD. So those are the intrusive thoughts and tying back into, of course, a lot of people want to hide those thoughts, right? They want to hide that from their friends and not talk about those dark things. Then there's the C part, the compulsions. And that's the actions typically. So physical actions. So for monk, it would be like the hand washing or the tapping or counting and all that. There are also, as I've learned more throughout my therapy, there are also mental compulsions. So sometimes when you're thinking it can be an intrusive thought, it can be a ruminating thought, but sometimes it can be a compulsion. Like I have to solve this problem. No, I haven't solved it yet. I need to keep solving. No, I need to keep solving, or I need to get to the end. I need to figure this out. And some of them are also physical. There's another protagonist in Throw Your Heart Into the Sea who talks about needing to get the seam on the jeans in the right spot on her leg. And that was true for Andrew too. He'll say that when he's wearing long sleeve shirts, the seams have to be just right on the arm and if they're not or like when we first started dating, you didn't like having the backs of your hands touched, or if you did, you had to touch both hands. And those were just concessions that I was willing to make as a partner, but that's just an example of a physical compulsion. Yeah, and I think part of it was I knew I had some quirks, or idiosyncrasies, as I would say. That's how you describe it. What's the word? Idiosyncrasies. Idiosyncrasies. What is that in German? Oh, don't even ask me. Just say it with a German accent. Idiosyncratie? Yeah, maybe. Syncrosis? Who knows? But yeah. We got to take it. It's not a real word. Quirks. Little interesting habits that not everyone does. But partially, I think I owe some of my learning about my OCD and being together with Lauren, because there are some things I didn't realize were odd until I was living with someone else. So when we started dating, we got engaged, we moved in with each other. And so when sleeping in bed, I had to be, I was compelled, compulsive, be on a certain shoulder, like laying on my side. And then sometimes our brain would say, nope, now you have to switch. You have to be on this other shoulder. And so I'd have to roll over. And I just kept, you know, constantly switching shoulders, you know, and which was probably disturbing as she's trying to fall asleep. And so learning things like that or. And like you might be thinking if you're neurotypical, you're like, well, that happens to me too, and I just roll over. But for Andrew, it is an absolute, if he ignores it, there is a discomfort that comes through that's like goosebumps or pain, chills down the spine, and it becomes something different. And that's, yeah, I think it's a little, it's good to know the difference between those two. For example, also when we would go to bed, you had to have a stand-up comedy running. So there was sound and something So not from you. Yeah, not from mine at that time. Yeah, but it was I think in many ways personally that it was a way to drown out the voices. If you have, like, because when you're going to sleep, we all know that that's like the time that your brain is racing and it's sometimes really hard to turn it off, especially when you have OCD. Yeah, and so I used to, it used to take me two to three hours to fall asleep every night. And I tried so many different things to improve my sleep. And this was before and after the OCD diagnosis, because I thought I had a sleep disorder. But I, you know, I tried no coffee in the afternoon and, you know, not eating before bed, all the sleep hygiene tricks. And I went to a sleep doctor and he said, well, it seems like you're okay. And finally, after a few months, maybe a year or so into my OCD therapy, it really started to improve because what was keeping me up at night were my thoughts. And I had no idea. I didn't know that's what was happening. And so I think that segues into the D of OCD, the disorder. And so people can have obsessions, people can have compulsions, people can have both, you know, obsessive compulsive tendencies, but the D is disorder. When it really disrupts your life and it really becomes a problem. So I wasn't sleeping well. I was constantly fatigued and feeling miserable. I dropped out of work, dropped out of school. I stopped going to as many places or I would leave early. And as his partner, that's usually when I know he's in a low place is when the things that he does as a partner fall to the wayside. So like helping with laundry or doing the dishes or just the normal human things that partners do when those start to go and I'm taking it on the weight, then I'm like, okay, something's going on with Andrew. And yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, obviously disrupted my life to a large extent. But for some other people I've met who've undergone therapy as well, or, you know, just starting that some people can get like trapped in their homes in a way where they just feel they cannot leave their house for sometimes years. And this can be connected to depression as well, can't it? It can, absolutely. But it doesn't have to. It doesn't have to be. I think it depends on what the feeling is. I often use the word mechanism. I don't know. Yeah, the... Mechanism. feeling is or I often use the word mechanism I don't know yeah the um yeah so with the with the treatment that I know you will talk about um for anyone who's suffering from anxiety it's always good to name your thoughts kind of like they're a person living with you um I don't have OCD, but I do have anxiety. And her name, my brain, is Gladys. And when she tells me things that I, as Lauren, do not believe, then I can say things like, well, go F yourself, Gladys. Like, the regular one that comes up so often. And as a partner, I'm sure you've done this before before where you're just like, are you mad at me? I swear you're being quiet. You're mad at me. And I literally just have to be like, that is Gladys panicking because Andrew hasn't said something in 30 seconds. And so I'm able to really disassociate between those thoughts that are going to continue to come and what I actually believe. And that's what Andrew did in ERP. Do you want to tell them about your? Yeah. So that's what you said was excellent, that it is difficult, especially in the beginning of treatment, to understand what's actually my thought, like what's something that I, Andrew, value and want, and what's this mean brain that's just running, running, and being really negative. And so, yeah, we recommend it to friends all the time, actually, and sometimes she adds it to her stand-up comedy as well. I don't think we've talked about it on air. No, we haven't. Lauren is a little over a year into being a stand-up comedian as well. So check around if you get the chance. But there is a lot of humor in it, right? It's such a strange thing that I've named my brain Dolores for Dolores Umbridge from Harry Potter. Because I really did not like her. Me neither. Yeah, yeah. She's unlikable. And so it's easy for him to dislike those thoughts that she's going to put in his head. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. Because you can start to get some distance between, you know, oh, you suck, you're going to mess this up, or you're going to fall off the balcony, or you're going to show up naked to or you're going to fall off the balcony, or you're going to show up naked to the interview. That's my mean brain Dolores talking rather than Andrew talking. But just like Dolores Umbridge in the books, who we won't name the author, but she has a habit of saying, no, you're doing things wrong, but without outright saying it, she just does a little cough. And Andrew's thoughts regularly second guess what he's doing and second guess that he doesn't have it just right. He doesn't have it turned exactly the right way. And that's why Dolores Umbridge is a good fit for one of his OCDs. Dolores Umbridge is a good fit for one of his OCDs. Seems so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are some different lenses to look at OCD. One lens being avoidance, that's one thing, and another is doubt. So my therapist in the first week I saw her said OCD is a doubting disorder. So if we look at the monk type thing, you're doubting that your hands are clean enough. Or that, yeah, were you going to add something there? Yeah, I was just thinking about building the bridge to the film right now, because doubting kind of seems to be the same or very similar to uncertainty yes yes i guess and that's a big topic in the film yeah so i don't think or should we maybe we'll just do it and play some music again we don't have too much time then but i think it's a good idea so thanks didi, Daniel for doing this. I am woman, I am fearless, I am sexy, I'm the one I'm a beatable, creative, honey, you can get it I am feminine, I am masculine, I am anything I want I can teach ya, I can love ya, if you got it going on If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Got it going on, yeah Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on I am classic, I am modern I live by it coming on I am classic, I am modern, I live by my own design I am cherry, I am lemon, I'm the sweetest key right part I'm electric, I am bass, I'm the beat of my own drum I can make you good songs raise with the dressing on my thumb Only love can get inside me Here I move it in my own timing Voice of the future, speak to me kindly Ask for what I want, and somehow it find me Somehow it find me Somehow it find me Hey, hey, hey I am woman, I am fearless I am sexy, I'm divine, I am sexy, I'm divine I'm a beatable, I'm creative, honey, you can get it I am feminine, I am masculine, I am anything I want I can teach ya, I can love ya, if you got it going on If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it in Did you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on? If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it in If you got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Got it going on, yeah Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Got it, got it, got it, got it, got it going on Yeah, yeah Eat no evil, speak no evil I am not the one to close You can talk that shit about you Long as you know that it's false I am earthly, I am heaven I am what I like to be When I ask for what I want Somehow they find me Somehow they find me I am woman, I am fearless, I am sexy, I'm fine, I'm a beauty. Terra FM. Teacher Education Radio Austria. Das Studierendenradio der Pädagogischen Hochschule Oberösterreich. Herzlich willkommen zurück bei Terra FM und PHTV. Heute zum Thema OCD und Crossing Europe, bei welchem diese Woche der Film von Christian Kogler und Eric Schierl Wirft ein Herz ins Meer gezeigt wird. Wir wollten eigentlich sehr viel auch über den Film sprechen, sind aber bei OCD hängen geblieben aufgrund meiner Gäste. Bei mir sind heute Andrew und Lauren Godworth. Did I get that right? Und wir werden gleich zur englischen Sprache switchen, weil es für unsere Kommunikation einfacher ist. So, switching back to English right now. We've just started to talk about Crossing Europe and the film by Christian and Eric in which both of you have a role yes I mean we can't talk about acting there because it's a documentary and I think whatever you said I'm going to see it in a few days is true because documentary style no acting we've been also talking about uncertainty regarding OCD and that's a big topic in the film so would you want to tell me or us the audience um about what you what your approach to uncertainty is and maybe if you kind of think differently by now yeah that's a good question yeah i i'm i really like that this is something christian and i can talk about and and lauren as well we get into some great deep conversations and i'm really happy to see eric and christian bring this to audiences to the public public, to talk about uncertainty. Because right before the break, we were talking about OCD being a doubting disorder. And to me, doubt and uncertainty are almost synonyms. I'm uncertain if I'm doing this interview well, so I'm doubting it. I'm uncertain. Or I'm uncertain about our relationship. So there's relationship OCD as a subtype, or I'm uncertain if my clothing is just right. So I need to adjust it. I'm not sure I need to adjust. I'm not sure. And so that that is a big theme of the film and a big theme in OCD as well about being uncertain. I'm uncertain if the microphone's far enough away. I think it's quite okay right now. That's okay. But yeah, as far as the film, just something funny to me I wanted to mention is that we're listed as protagonists, which, as you said, it's a documentary, and I find that strange to be protagonists in real life. Yeah, then does that make the antagonist OCD itself? I guess so. That's a good question, then. That's a good point. Yeah, fighting the anxiety that plagues. I mean, I think films like this one are really important and I think every documentarian will tell you that they're trying to make an impact and bring something to the light that is not being shown and OCD is definitely one of those we've talked about at this entire time that not many people know about and this is a really great look at what life looks like with what life looks like with OCD and that it it's never like here's a pill and it's gone there's no magic bullet there There's, um, no real solution, but there are coping mechanisms and ways to learn to live with your OCD. Um, and talking about uncertainty, um, one of the things that me as a supporter of Andrew who has OCD, he will sometimes vocalize the doubts that come through and just say them out loud. And I have now the tools to say, sounds like OCD to me. Or he'll say, sometimes I think you don't love me. And then I say, probably not. I'm probably going to divorce you tomorrow. And it's never certain, but it's always more like, yeah, maybe I will. Maybe I'll get struck down by lightning tomorrow. Who's to say? Because those uncertainty in treating his OCD, it is a lot easier to fight those thoughts when you don't give in and reassure what is going on in the brain of a person with OCD. So, um, it's, it's, for example, someone who asks, do I look fat in this? You say, no, you look fine. But an OCD person may consider like continually say, do I look fat in this? Yeah, but do I look fat from this angle? Yeah, but do I look fat? And then the person who is giving the response of saying, no, no, no, you're reassuring the OCD and also that action of asking. And the uncertainty is still there. Yeah, I've heard and read about that. Yeah, so that's, yeah. Yeah, and I do want and read about that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah. Yeah. And I do want to talk about the film in our few minutes left, but... Like five. We can do five more minutes. Yes, but I think this is such a key thing that we didn't fully touch on. We touched on a lot of what OCD is and how to get there. But as far as the treatment, what is considered the gold standard treatment is exposure and response prevention therapy. I think Exposition is something like that in German. And it's what Lauren was describing a bit is we say learning to sit with the uncertainty or learning to live our lives with the uncertainty. Kind of accepting it. Yeah. Yeah. So not trying to engage with it, but also not trying to push it away. Like not saying don't think about it, don't think about it, don't think about it, because that often rebounds and then you think about it more. Yeah, it does. It does. Yes, it does. I know about that as well. Yes, yes, yes. So, um, one of the ones or a couple of things Lauren said, what are called non-engagement responses, um, in ERs and like research literature. Um, it's this whole thing about, yeah, how do you manage a thought without engaging with it or without pushing it away? That middle ground is really hard. And so one is saying, yeah, maybe, maybe not. Maybe we did terrible on this interview. Sorry, would you say that that middle ground is uncertain? It is uncertain. Yes. Yes. Thank you, dear. And you definitely did not do bad in the interview. Yes, yes, yes. I can tell you that. Yes, but see, that might be reassurance. Oh, I shouldn't do that. Yeah, well. Okay, but what would I? No, that's okay. I think, yes, for those that are working with people with OCD, there's a difference between reassurance and validation. Correct. And so a validation can be something supportive, but usually just once. So as we are thankfully going to get to hang out the rest of the day, you wouldn't need to tell me five times, ten times, you did fine, you did fine, you did fine. I don't think I will. Yes, okay. Well, you heard it once, and Christian continually tells you that each time is better and the best that you've ever done. So you, you know, regularly. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of nice sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes not so much. Yeah. Not sure. Yeah. But as we have a few minutes left, the film, I wanted to talk a bit about how cool it was to be behind the scenes and to be a part of it. I mean, we make some stuff on social media, but it's just an iPhone. Or, you know, I was in a high school broadcasting class and I did a little bit of editing. But it was really cool to see something so professionally done. And so we were invited to come to Salzburg two Christmases ago, I think. And it was really a magical, I mean, just side note, it was like a winter wonderland, snow everywhere, beautiful sunsets, everything. And yeah, Eric and Christiane and team set up a great interview space. And then they've kept us updated on the progress throughout. And they came back to Berlin and shot some B-roll with us in Berlin, which was really fun. And then I had this enjoyable moment where we were in Vienna with Eric and Christian and just talking like I do love to talk. And I said something like, yeah, both my parents were math teachers. And Eric stopped. He was like, oh, my gosh, you say that on the film. And I have listened to you say that so many times as they go through it. And he goes, you said it in the exact same tone and speed as you do it. And I have heard it more times than I can count. Which I think points to the care and effort they put into it. He talks about color grading and the sound and all these things that I've never done on my iPhone. But it's really cool to see the thought and care and process and skill in which they put into it. Yeah. And maybe one last question. Sure. Which needs to be answered shortly. needs to be uh and shortly keep us brief i told you keep us brief um so both of you are going to see yourselves is this correct english i don't know you're going to see yourselves on the the big screen this week how do you feel about that like sitting in your room seeing yourself i think the excitement outweighs the fear, but I will definitely have to be quiet, like tell Gladys to be quiet when she's like, you look fat, your hair looks greasy. What's that on your face? And just like enjoy the moment because Gladys will be quite loud. And I think Dolores will be loud in my head, you know, that I, you know, didn't do it right. I didn't do enough, but I am trying to uh as it sounds cheesy but therapists or city therapists say uh pursue your values even with the anxiety so I will be anxious this week but I'm gonna do it anyway and it'll be a lot of fun that's's beautiful. I like that. So looking at the time, I think we've got one more minute. So thank you so much for coming. Thank you. It was a pleasure. You did great. Thank you for the interview. Thank you. Yeah, I tried to kind of present my best English. Yes. You did great or you didn't. We'll see. Maybe, maybe not. No, I won't see. Come on, Linda. Either way, thank you so much. Switching back to German now. Die nächste Sendung wird am 15. Mai sein, soweit ich informiert bin. Danke fürs Zuhören. Danke für die Reassurance von draußen. 15. Mai, genau, Thema weiß ich gerade nicht, ist aber halb so wild. Danke fürs Zuhören, danke fürs Zusehen und wir sehen uns in 14 Tagen.