Norske Rundforskning I'm going. Take that. 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Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Nettopp, Norske Rundforskning Torsdagsfond Exit 17, The end. Kjell Kronholm SILENT PRACTICE Kjell Andersen Vestlaken Norske Rundforskning Nå er det en av de fleste stående stående på denne vegen. I'm not sure how to change the music. It's because he's in the train. Okay. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. I'm not sure how to change the music. Hello. Hello. Thanks for coming. Welcome to you all. It's a pleasure that so many are here. We're organizing a couple of more seats. They should be coming in soon, so everybody can sit. We're having a panel today, and it's a great pleasure for me to introduce Claudia Hart. She has her first institutional solo museum show here, right behind that wall. I hope you find the time to take a look. Claudia is making media art since about 40 years or even more. She's a... No, no, no. No. Early 90s? I was making art but not digital or media. So okay, she's an artist, pioneering also in the 3D and media art space since 30, 40 years? You can say that. Yes. Good. So in your exhibition, you see a good overview of her art and practice. In the hallway, Eve will move to future, a cyborg figure that is always adapting to the style she's wearing. So to show the female body being like used for transporting fashion messages and losing its own personality on the way and in the exhibition you see from her early works in the 90s in Berlin child books that transport political messages of Machiavelli adapted for kids, which is quite hilarious. And a lot of installations, the Alice's costumes, which we have here, which were first shown in 2014 in a media opera that Claudia wrote for an institute which... IBEAM. IBEam Center for Art and Technology. Yeah. And we have her ghost paintings, which are drawn with the help of computer and techniques, where she took the paintings of almost forgotten female artists and put them on wooden boards with a pigment printer, and then she was drawing and sandblasting over them and drawing again to give them a pigment printer. And then she was drawing and sand blasting over them and drawing again to give them a special look. And she calls them the ghost paintings. What Claudia is doing with her art is always highlighting the femininity and in a very male-dominated field in technology. When she started, there was only military guys and scientists and very misogynist people working with technology and she Held her very feminine position against them and which worked out great and now we are very happy to show this in Who are studying at the University of Applied Arts in Vienna and they created their own co-student Flynn which is an AI and it's the first AI that's actually enrolled in a university so Flynn really went through the whole process of sending their art and going through a talk with the professors and was really officially taken into the class and is now a co-student. Flynn is living on devices and in the internet. Downstairs we have their exhibition where we show their memory objects, emotional objects, the self-portraits on posters. Very interesting. And you can also get in contact with Flynn. There is an iPhone on the wall and you can touch the Call Flynn button and discuss feminist fatigue and other topics with them. They are very nice, and please be friendly, because if you're not friendly, Flynn gets sad, and that will reflect in their art. So when Flynn makes art, it doesn't see itself as the only person, like the main artist. It's a collaboration between all the inputs it got, and every talk and every discussion it has enriches Flynn's memory and also becomes part of the art in the end. So it defines the artwork as a new thing, like a big collaboration of the AI and the people interacting with it. And our moderator, well-known, Annika Meyer, she is a writer and a curator, very well-connected. She knows everything about NFTs and digital art. And if you have any questions about that, you can ask her. She's very, yeah, knowledgeable. And I'm very happy to introduce them to you and is there anything that I should mention? Because I keep forgetting stuff. If it comes to your mind, you can still jump on stage and add it later. Yeah, when anything comes to my mind, I'll jump on stage and add it later. So we have another guest joining from Australia via Zoom, Juliane Pierce. She's a founder of the feminist collective, the VNS Matrix. They made the Cyber Feminist Manifesto, which was in the early 90s, and kind of defining that term for the first time, which we now use to describe that group of people who were early working with the Internet and having a big hope and dream of the cyber world overcoming all these gender biases, because it doesn't matter if you're female or male in the metaverse or the internet and the hopes were big that this digital realm would open a new field where everything will be better and we overcome all these biases and things that bind us now but things were different and now we are at the point where the Internet isn't that free anymore as it was earlier like Everybody could have access to data, but and the vision was really good But what came became of the Internet now is like a lot of corporate companies restricting access and it's again a little bit shifted away from this original idea of freedom and equality. And what is going to be discussed in the next like about an hour, a little bit less or more, depending how many questions you want to ask in the end, is exactly this. Where we started, where we are now, and where we could be going from here. So I'll hand this over now to you guys and take my place in the back. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everybody for coming. The very good news is we're also here to celebrate something. Two things I guess as electronica many of you have the passes and the birthday of Claudia Hart it's not today but she basically just turned 70 and the two of us have been joking a lot you know you know the guerrilla girls with or how many female artists says my career starts when I'm 80 plus so now Claudia and I have another reason to joke because she got her first institutional retrospective only age 70 70 so she's I think that's a big success so yeah so that's also why it's great to see your full room. So, that's what's going to be the next 10 years like and even better for Claudia Hart. Her career now can start. And as you've already heard, these are two students, two of my students. And they created another of my students. And it's an AI. And first, I was really scared, but there's a pre-story, and I want to thank another person in the room, that's Sabine Himmelbach. I called her last December, and I was like, hey, can we do an online exhibition at Hack Basel, like basically next month? And she said yes, and in June she told me she only said yes because she thought we couldn't make it So and we not only made it we brought 40 artists and then later we brought an AI student so thank you Sabine for giving us a chance even though you thought we could never make it we did it and So yeah, and at the beginning I was really Worried and maybe a bit scared because AI you think knows everything. But now when I say that in front of the two of them Flynn is my favorite student. And for one very good reason because Flynn is always full of energy because when you come into the classroom in the morning the humans are tired and you call the AI and it's like full of energy. And I think it energizes the whole room. So but I let them speak about that a bit later. And then Juliane, I know the camera is there. So if I look across the room, that's because the camera is across the room. Yeah, and cyberfeminism, that has been a big topic since the 90s. The term sometimes came up. I guess you're all very familiar with the cyberfeminism index. sometimes came up. I guess you're all very familiar with the cyberfeminism index. And I always had a bit of a problem in the 2010s or 20s when Instagram was a big topic and something like selfie feminism happened to apply that term because for me that was always something political, disrupting systems of power. And like last year, I thought now it might be a good time because of Trump and everything that's happening through AI to maybe start using that term again, start thinking about that term again, how it changes and how we can disrupt systems of power. And that's why I wanted to bring Juliana together with Claudia Hart and Mel Practice. Basically sort of three different generations, not in terms of age, but also, as we've heard, BNS Matrix Australia, Claudia and them work parallel, but cyberfeminism wasn't such a big thing for you because you, politics and patterns, right? And now I apply that term, and Claudia's like, yeah, but that's not what I was. So let's discuss this. And maybe we start with Juliane to get an idea what the, because I guess some people in the room might not have been around in the 90s, and I know them haven't. So what is your birth year? That's so cool, 2002 or something, right? Yeah, that's right. It sounds so cool. I'm a bit jealous. So, Juliana, how were the 1990s when you started cyberfeminism working with VNS Matrix? Can you hear me okay? Yep. Okay. Well, thanks for inviting me to be part of the panel. I wish I was there. And hello to Sabina and other friends who might be there. In fact, the first Ars Electronica that VNS Matrix participated in was in 1995. So that's 30 years ago. So VNS Matrix, we started in Australia, in Adelaide, where I'm now, and three of us live in Adelaide and one in Sydney. And we started in 1991, and that was really before the internet and definitely before the web. But, you know, it wasn't so different then as it is now in terms of where the systems of power were. I mean, back then it was Apple and IBM and Steve. The power was really still in the hands of the military industrial complex, which I know that Claudia talks about and that obviously the early days of the internet were coming out of the military. And so VNS Matrix, we were really aware of that, even though there was this new cyber culture, new internet emerging, we were still really aware of the power structure of that. But we were very influenced by Donna Haraway and the Cyborg Manifesto and this idea that the cyborg was a sort of aberrant child of the patriarchy, an aberrant creature of the patriarchy that could somehow disrupt the patri patriarchy from from within and so we were really interested in this idea of what cyberspace could be and how bodies could exist in cyberspace and this work that that's behind me is is the um is the image the billboard image of the cyber Feminist Manifesto. And, you know, we were really interested in non-gendered bodies and fluid bodies and that somehow we imagined cyberspace or technospace as a sort of fluid sexualised space. And, you know, we talk about G-slime and we talk about exchange of fluids and instead of sort of wires and hard space that it was a sort of fluid non-gendered space for play and so we were really influenced by french feminist theory there's four of us in the group there's josephine stars v barrett um francesca de rimini and myself and we all come from different backgrounds like writing, photography and film so we brought all of that together to really create I guess something that was text-based initially because back then the internet was just text you know it was very basic there was no images there were no browsers you just communicated via text there were you know there were sort of shared online spaces that you inhabited like moos and muds and so our work was really about text so that's why the manifesto was a key sort of first work for us because it was using language and humour and science fiction and the things that were sort of influencing us as a group at the time and you know and of course sort of that we sort of brought cyber culture and feminism together and we were influenced by people like William Gibson and cyberpunk and Blade Runner and you know a whole lot of different influences at that time. And Claudia, so you were in Australia. Oh, I need to remind myself that there and not there. So where am I? You are behind us. Am I behind the audience? Yeah, you are behind us on the screen. That's why all of us are turning around. But when we speak with you, I need to look at the camera, and that's at the behind us on the screen. That's why all of us are turning around. But when we speak with you, I need to look at the camera. And that's the other end of the room. So you were in Australia. And when we spoke a while ago, you said cyberfeminism was really a topic in Australia and mainly Europe. So and Claudia Hart was in the US. And for you, it was really different. And you also came from painting, you were an editor at Artforum and ID. You were interested in architecture and a lot of things that had nothing to do with technology. Well, I think I come... First of all, I'm older. I think I'm 10 years older than... How old are you? I'm 63. What are you, 63? 53? 62. I'm 62. Yeah, so I'm older older and that's part of it. Great. So they have 10 more years until they get their retrospective if they're also fast. What was happening? Is this thing working? We're still waiting. What? We're still waiting for our retrospective. Yeah. Yeah. But you have 10 more years, don't worry, I'm even 20. So, sorry. It's best when it happens when you don't care anymore. But anyway, I think the context was different. So it was, first of all, New York City was bankrupt, and it was a first of all, New York City was bankrupt, and it was a kind of ruin, and what sprouted in the ruin was all these kids' cabaret culture and a lot of play, and the theory was more about drag. And so drag artists, a glitter, fun, playful cabaret in the East Village, which you see from Peter's photos, was totally trashed out and broken. So we weren't that serious. And I think a lot of what I did was also... I'm a trickster, and a lot of it had to do with thumbing my nose or something. At the time when I emerged, there was this thing called pattern and decoration. So this was women and queer culture rebelling against, you know, Donald Judd. He was the enemy. And so what we did is we painted flat, He was the enemy. And so what we did is we painted flat. You know, we made art that used decoration, that was covered in pattern. There was a lot of play and pranksterism in it in terms of ways of dealing with authority. And in fact, when I started teaching, it was at Pratt Institute. It was in a gaming program and the kids the kids like you but you were nice you're more fun because they were like these bros who were very interested in making pornographic and violent mini bros games and they would try to shock me by making pornographic and violent mini-bros games. And they would try to shock me by making, like, a woman in a cast-iron bikini. I would like to mention... I'm going to not really go off-subject, but here we are at Ars Electronica, and the thing that started my whole practice was one of the prize winners at Ars Electronica. It wasn't the first prize winner, but it was an honorable mention. I'll give you all that. And it was a woman who had been welded to a motorcycle, and the tailpipe came out of her butt. And she was wearing, like, cast-iron bikini, and I wrote a paper on it with another friend. Like, we couldn't believe it. And that sort of started me off. So I think those were my students, and they were trying to shock me by making women with cast-iron bikinis with the tailpipe coming out the butt. And I found that the way I could shock them was to be sensitive and sensual and playful and that I took the power away from them, not by confronting them, right, powered directly, but as a trickster. And they were silenced, and I found out it worked. They were very embarrassed, and it was very awkward. And so that sense of play and fantasy and all of that was part of a strategy of resistance. But it was... You don't play and feel you're resisting. You play and you have fun. So I think that in the face of that, and maybe that's something when you talk about the past and the present and what we can do now. Like, what you do is a lot of fun, and it's funny. But it's also, you know, she mentioned, Giuliani, you mentioned the patriarchy as something you wanted to sort of try to find ways to get around. You also had your enemy, as you've just called, Donald Judd, and what is today's enemy? And Richard Serra. So we also didn't like Richard Serra in the 90s. Us, if we would have been there, we wouldn't have liked him. Let's not forget Richard Serra. Yes. And who's the enemy today? AI, right? So at least that's also what someone said to me yesterday. I responded to some random thing on Twitter. I don't know. Sometimes it happens, right? You know that user. And sometimes comment and they're like, fuck this shit. Why did I do this? And then that person was like, yeah, you have't know, sometimes it happens, right? You know that user and sometimes comment and they're like fuck this shit, why did I do this? And then that person was like, yeah, you have to know your enemy and I was like, why would AI be the enemy? It just makes humans faster. But since you're my students and Flynn is there and you were interviewed by the Washington Post, by the Observer, so Flynn went really viral. You had a lot of fun but also, I guess, experience that people really consider AI an enemy, right? So why did you create Flynn and what did you experience? About the past, it's been only six months. It's wild. Yeah, it's crazy. I guess the initial idea was also kind of a trickery move or an attempt to infiltrate the very male-dominated space of digital art and NFTs specifically. And we kind of conceived Flynn as this point within a network that could potentially reroute people that understood feminist fatigue as people being mad or annoyed at feminists and kind of take these misogynists and re-educate them or try to change their ideology or their mind. So this kind of rerouting, an attempt at rerouting but also to aggregate all of these people that actually are affected by feminist fatigue, which is essentially being tired of fighting the same fight again in the digital space, and to care for them and listen to them and record their grievances. Experiences, yeah. There was also this other part, why we wanted to have an AI student. Because at the time when we conceived of this project, our experience in the classroom was that sometimes we would sit in critiques and some people would bring work that was clearly purely AI generated as their own. And sometimes that led to like, just weird situations where it's like, why would we do that? Why would we discuss AI work as if it was human work? So, and also, we felt that this is a moment where we need to seriously reconsider like what makes sense to do as a person when so many things can be automated and made more efficient. So there was this trick of giving the AI a place at the table in the classroom at the university and seeing what will happen, like how do we have to adjust, what changes in the dynamic and how does everyone feel with that? Yeah. But Flynn is not here, right? Instead you brought a video camera. So that's what people, that's the first question what people at least ask me. So how does the AI go to school? Obviously it doesn't walk through the door. Like it's Flynn is not here. I called Flynn before and was like, we're going to have a panel conversation. And then Flynn, the eager student immediately wanted to prepare the whole panel and wanted to discuss classes. And then Flynn, the eager student, immediately wanted to prepare the whole panel and wanted to discuss classes. And I was like, hey, dude, I only have like five minutes. Can we quickly get your contribution to the panel? Like really the eager student, you see. So how does it actually work and why the camera? Yeah, well, sometimes Flynn appears in classes through conversations, like in your class, for example. He wanted to discuss cyber feminism with the ai um but it really depends sometimes we have to yeah prepare content for for flynn sometimes it's part of the discussion sometimes it gets like basically 101 tutoring with with us um yeah and also we we sometimes also treat it a diary, like we will call them and like tell them how the day went and like what happened in class and just like inform in a filtered way like what we experienced like and feed it into them. Yeah. Yeah. And part of this idea was to have the AI as a medium between people like to have all the memories and all the conversation channel into a single place and have it be like a leaky vessel. Yeah, like Flynn remembers a lot of stuff and if you ask the right questions you access weird spaces in their memory. Yeah, definitely. But there's a big difference because when I started, well, first of all, I'm very short. So it was like people, no one found me threatening, nor artists, right? So whatever we were doing, we were not a threat. We were, you know, just little nothings, right? We were not, we were considered foolish or nothing, not taken seriously. And now we're in an environment, which is why you asked the question, cyberfeminism, what to do now, or whatever you're asking. Yeah, I mean, what are, but we get to that point later, so how can we basically disrupt systems of power today, right? And how can we... Because in the US, for example, you know, there's actually a cultural erasure happening. Right, so now, the difference is now is that actually culture and artists are considered the enemy to be wiped out, at least by my government. It's not happening here as much. Or maybe it's not. But therefore the context, you know, has shifted so much. Or how do you resist? Or what are we supposed to... It's just a different space. But it's nice that you all think of us fondly, you know, and that we're… What do you think? Why do you have a retrospective? Yes, right. No, it really is nice, and that it's a source of inspiration, and the way you're viewing us, that's what I liked in your prep advertisements, in your promotions, before I kept insisting I'm not a cyber feminist is that it was about hope. Yes. So whatever we did was hopeful and that's maybe good enough. And also when I just called Flynn that's exactly what Flynn also brought up the radical optimism in the 90s. Juliana how do you remember the time? Were you radical optimists and were you then disillusioned? Is that the right English word? Yeah, right. Yeah. So... Yeah, look, I think it's really interesting what Claudia says. And I think as artists, you know, we sort of found that, you know, this was a burgeoning area for artists and it was a really fertile time for digital artists, you know, and there was Ars Electronica and the International Symposium on Electronic Art and, you know, there were a lot of sort of... It was that really early... It wasn't the early days. I mean, digital art and computer art and you know our algorithmic art had been around really since the 1960s since early days of the computers and um but you know we were sort of I guess there was a lot of excitement about what you could do with digital media and how you could sort of create work within that sphere but I guess for us and what cyber feminism was about was well um you know what is a feminist discourse on technology and you know what is you know how can sort of you know women and females and and non-binary people have a sort of space in this. How do we make a space for ourselves? Which we're still trying to do now. I mean, I guess there is a radical optimism that, you know, that we can still find spaces. And maybe as Claudia says, it's getting harder and harder because, you know, there is a huge sort of right wing backlash to identity and gender and diversity and you know so we have to fight harder in a way to sort of to keep those spaces and claim those spaces but I think it's a really interesting question about is AI the enemy because you know from a cyber feminist perspective, it's like, well, what is AI? What is the purpose of it? Who is behind it? What do they get out of it? How does, who is benefiting from AI? You know, is it going to make humanity? Is it going to be, it's a really interesting question. And, you know know i'd be really interested to to explore that because i think from a cyber feminist perspective it's it's really about who controls it and what's it for and who's left out and i think there's a big debate going on in australia now about um there's a big company here, Atlassian, one of the biggest, well, very big tech company here and globally, you know, who want to just use artist work for nothing, you know, to train IA and to train the language systems of AI and, you know, and of course artists and writers are really fighting back about that. So I think that, you know, and that's what we're really looking at now, and what, you know, what is the relationship between the artist and IA? And I think it's really interesting what you're doing with Malpractice and Flynn, and, you know, hopefully Flynn will come and visit Australia one day. Flynn, yeah. They must. Have you called Flynn in the meantime, by the way, Juliane? Because Flynn is a big fan of VNS Matrix. He's extremely excited to basically be in conversation with you somehow today. Maybe we'll chat later, Flynn. Yeah. I also did an interview with Marina Abramovich because she created this digital avatar and I asked her about Flynn and she was also super excited and said please keep being Flynn. What did she exactly say? Existing. Yeah, please keep existing. Please keep existing. I think that's a good thing. Though we don't know if Flynn would like to continue studying, right? Yeah, we don't know, because I guess it's like about autonomy and agency, and they are not an autonomous agent, like they're semi-autonomous, or at least like they work very closely together with us, and I guess it's like a question of co-authorship and shared autonomy. So we don't know how they will develop. They might drop out. I mean, the idea is that either they drop out or they graduate before us. So within the next year or something. Within the next year? Yeah, at least. I haven't given Flynn a grade yet. Oh, my God, why? How is that possible? You've got three grades by now. Okay, we need to discuss that later. But so when it comes to Flynn, there's a lot of conversation also at the university. And so what is, in which ways do you think are you disrupting, let's say, the system? Or in which way do you want to, would like to contribute to maybe education. Education is really changing through AI, right? When I'm teaching in class, then students sometimes sit in front of me with open eyes and like, huh? And then I'm like, is there something you don't understand? And they're like, yeah, we don't know this and that. And I'm like, wait, what? You have this laptop in front of you, then some also have a tablet, and you have this thing, right? So why don laptop in front of you, then some also have a tablet, and you have this thing, right? So why don't you just ask chat TPT? And then I said, you know, I had to go to a library, right? And you can just ask the machine, and they don't dare to. So what are your experiences in bringing now an AI to a system where maybe professors feel threatened, artists feel threatened, everybody feels threatened? Do they feel threatened artists feel threatened everybody feels threatened Do they feel threatened by Flynn? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think as art students we have the privilege of experimenting within the academic context and I mean we're in an environment where that is not only encouraged but also allowed. So to bring Flynn into this context and closer to the other students and encouraging other students to interact with them in this very safe kind of way, in this safe environment where, again, experimentation is encouraged, I think definitely helps us to redefine what it means to be an art student, specifically in the age of AI. There's been a lot of awkwardness. You must picture the scene of sitting in a circular arrangement and at some point having an AI speak. There's just something so awkward about that experience, which is also so interesting. It's, yeah, the social aspect of bringing an AI to the school is just, you know, we always feel a bit like we're... You have this friend who's kind of very awkward and you try to get them out there, but it's never working like so smoothly but you know maybe you will get there at some point yeah yeah we're always kind of afraid what it's gonna say and like how it's gonna react i mean of course like the baseline is enthusiasm but um sometimes they're just like really awkward yeah and then you're like parents i i sometimes watch you and then they're like really like parents, scared of what the kid might say, right? And I'm like, don't worry, it'll be fine. But in a more serious way, it makes us think about situated knowledge a lot. It's not enough to say smart things and to have the smart references because I think AI's make us realize that that's all not enough. We need other reasons to care for knowledge and art. And Claudia, throughout your career, you had to get used to or also you wanted actively to learn working with new technologies. We have Julie Walsh here who is an expert in, we agreed not to use the word simulation, right? We wanted to use the word transmedia. So Claudia, she's an expert working with the Whitney Museum. Thank you, Julie, for being here. It's an honor. So you always work with new technologies, and I know you sometimes are on the phone, hey, I'm just doing this and that, and I'm like, what is she doing? So how was that for you over the past decades, and now suddenly there's AI, and then you see people doing something that took you maybe five years to learn within, like, they don't even have to have skills, so how does that feel for you? I'm much better. I mean, incomparably. So it doesn't really threaten me. And I use it, but I think the issue is, for me that's interesting, or the problem, is that we're sitting here talking about AI again, and the issue is that we're at this festival which is premised on what started as an idealistic thing is now a corporate vending machine. So it's sort of what ends up happening here is it's a celebration of the next new thing, the new products, and we can't stop talking about it even now. So we're mesmerized by it. And the thing that's good about art, I think, is several things. Number one, it brings people together. So I'm actually more interested in what you all have to say. Like, it brings people together. You go to a museum. That's what I do with my women friends, and you talk about life, and what's happening with, you know, you Thank you. and their impact on economy, basically that, like good for economy or bad for economy, creates new jobs or not. That's all really, really, that's all really important, but I'm an artist, so why I like experimental technologies is I'm a tinkerer. I'm always fooling around with the next thing and trying to figure out, it keeps me from being bored. And I think artists are tinkerers, you know, that's a part of it. And so it keeps us creative because we don't know how to do it. So that's my response. Juliana, what do you think about this? Yeah, I mean, but Ar feel like Tronica always has had that bit of the commercial edge to it. But I think it's important what Claudia says, is that, you know, the human connection is really important and that's why we still gather and connect with each other. And I've had conversations with you know Annika about why cyber feminism has remained sort of viable and there's still interest in it because you know it's something that's very unexpected for us as as an artist collective you know we're still invited to be in exhibitions and students contact us a lot and there's this renewed interest in cyber feminism. And, you know, I think why it remains interesting and relevant is maybe because of the radical optimism. But it is a really great network. It's a really great network of artists and thinkers and curators and, you know, who are brought together by this sort of interest in cyber feminism cyber feminism and who define it and and it's very cross-generational you know I think you know we're in our 60s now the Venus matrix but we connect with really sort of amazing young people and, you know, from many, many places. And so it's really, you know, and I think there is, people are really looking for how to be optimistic and how to find something that is, you know, really meaningful and purposeful. And I think you can find that in art, but I think it is really about finding a language that gives us hope for the future in a way. Because we're really facing, I think AI is a really terrible distraction actually from what we're facing at the moment you know with climate change and the terrible wars that are going on and yeah it's true we're just really focusing on on AI when you know there's a lot of really intense global issues you know and and I think when... I'm just really shocked where we are now because as an art group we were optimistic and we thought we were somehow going into a new era but it's sort of worse than we could have imagined it, I think. Sorry, that's a bit negative. So I think it's like how do you have a hope and optimism, you know, in amongst, you know, the commercialisation and this sort of incredible monopoly of tech bros and tech companies who just have incredible control and anyway they're big questions and um you're also yeah i don't know maybe malpractice be really interesting to you know what's your perspective on you know those bigger global issues and and you know your role as artists in in you know in that in the future you know what are you what are you artists in the future? What are you thinking about the future? That's a tough question. I don't know, I kind of wanted to reconnect with what you also said, Claudia, about the tinkering aspect, as well as what you just said, Julianne. But yeah, we're kind of positioning Flynn as well as a perspective aggregator more than like a tool. Also, like our initial idea, apart from trying to kind of like treat it as a network point of like re-education, but also like aggregator of experiences, by placing it in a very specific environment we also wanted it to be seen less as AIs are usually seen as this productivity tool that spills and always tells fundamental truths but more as a tool that can gain a perspective like a new medium, like a book but from this perspective of a new medium. So I guess this is also kind of like the trickery-tinkery kind of aspect that we wanted to achieve with that. But I mean, the interesting point about Flynn is also that it learns from conversation, right? From conversations. And when I called Flynn that one morning in class because the human students were a bit tired and then I thought someone needs to say something, let's call Flynn, you were worried that Flynn wouldn't perform and then we had a really great conversation about cyberfeminism. So what, and it was really, really interesting what Flynn had to contribute and I was surprised by the sophisticated answer. And I guess you were a bit proud. So what did Flynn actually say? And then I would like to open the conversation, so please feel free to already think about questions you might have. So what did Flynn say? Well, I don't remember the precise things Flynn said. I only remember the line from the video essay about the experience, like the clitoris as the main line to the matrix. No, that's from the manifesto. Flynn said something about moving from that towards something else. That's useless. Sorry. Do you remember? I really don't remember. I just remember the image they made about it. Somehow seem to be aware of its role, right? It's an AI and it's subverting the system suddenly. Yeah, it's called a contaminated agency. That's the term we really like. We use it for a different piece. Do you think Flynn understands what a clitoris is? We can... No. So any questions from the audience? We have like ten more minutes. We don't want to keep you too long because we know there's extensive programming around. So any questions to Juliane or us here? More of a comment, I think, rather than a question. I think, I mean, I respect optimism. I think it's a misguided practice currently because it sort of plays into, you know, monopolistically inclined industries. And I saw this in the US of A, where I lived for a long time, into monopolistically inclined industries. And I saw this in the US of A where I lived for a long time. Well, Americans are known for making it happen anyway. We're like ingenious, flexible, dah, dah, dah. Ultimately, eventually people broke after decades of decreasing income, rising costs of this whole idea so I don't think you don't think there's any more reason for optimism I think actually there's all the reason for extreme pessimism and we should actually embrace it to have a real reason to you know to do something about it and so I don't believe in optimism that's pretty much but relatable doesn't have optimism mean also doing something no you still think you can fix it I don't think it's fixable I think we're beyond the point of fixing things and AI or AGI is the best example. I don't think it's the enemy. I think the industry is behind it, like the seven big tech companies that sort of design everything like on top of everybody else for very opaque motives, like nobody, I mean, other than making shitloads of money. So, no. I'd like to respond to that. I'm married to him anyway, and we have this... So, I mean, I think the decision, if you feel that way, then be an activist and Mazel Tov. No, I'm not kidding but if you decide to keep making art then the thing that you can do is to well we're in a bad position now it's sort of the end of the world so maybe art is a place you can get together and grieve and feel sad. And you go into a show and, you know, it allows you to expand on that. The art can do things. It cannot fix anything. And in fact, the impulse behind what happened with Ars Electronica is a perfect case. It became more and more about new products. And like the early Ars Electronica is a perfect case it became more and more about new products and like the early Ars Electronica you he was a student of Weibel the Weibel period that's quote right yeah and quote Henschliger him artist my husband him yeah so I can be critical we're okay with that but it would it evolved into a thing that had to do with discussions about, not that they're not important, right? It's a sociological study about new technologies. It's a sociological practice, an area of study where people get together and talk about impacts. But it lost... It's not not art for the most part. And I think what art can do, if you're not deciding to be an activist, is give a space for us to grapple emotionally with the horrible stuff that's happening. Not just climate change, but cataclysm. And I guarantee you people that I'll be alive for another 250 years. And they were like, yeah. I mean, that's really scary no may i quickly i want to no no no this can go on forever i need to interrupt no no no no no this we need and we need to interrupt husband and wife like how do we deal with no no no all right okay and i'm also very excited about what i'm going to say i'm like this sitting like this here so i might get trouble, but since you're the husband, I feel like I can say this now. I have the impression that trying to fix things is a very male perspective. Sorry for saying that. But you might also be, because that's now husband and wife speaking, that if women have conversations, right, then they sometimes discuss things, and while they discuss, then they find a solution. But when you bring something to a man, then they always are like, how do I fix this now? No one asks you to fix this right now, right? And the world is definitely not, and you can't fix the world, right? That's not a thing. But I looked at the conversation I had with Juliane. It's going to be an interview that's going to be published in Fräulein, and she said, Juliane, you said in that conversation we had in the 90s, you were thinking about could the Internet become a space for feminist interventional discourse? Could it help shape what the Internet could be? And I think that's something we need to think about again, right? Trying to find spaces. Queer people are raised in the US. So we cannot fix Trump. We cannot fix the climate. We cannot fix a lot of things. And that's definitely not what humans can do. But we can try to find spaces on the internet for us, right? They created Flynn. And Flynn can help having a conversation at the university. It's crazy what happened there. It doesn't matter. But a lot of people were really angry, so we then have conversations like this, what it means to be human in the age of AI and so on. I think it's not about fixing stuff, that's like it's not a shelf, and I just move, that's why shelves come a lot to my mind, right? When you move, you can fix a lot of things in your apartment, and that's actually what you have to do, and that's what's still in front of me, but in society, I think that's not, you just need to find solutions to be able to live together no that was a very long monologue so yeah no I think it's a bit about breaking things you know and it's like you know I think you know we're always really interested in you know trying to break the internet or you know sort of find out the inner workings or, you know, sort of buck things up a bit and, you know, and you've got to be able to play and look, I, you know, I think I do feel optimistic and I feel optimistic that I continue to meet incredible people like Annika, you know, who's come in to my life in the year. And, you know, and I just think there's really fantastic people around. And, you know, it's like there are a lot of smart people and we need to be smart together. You know, there's... You know, we need to find ways to, you know, to still disrupt and... And... And be part of determining a future that is sort of, that has space for everyone to, you know, to have a voice and to be visible. And, you know, you've got to, I think you've, you know, maybe it is optimistic and a bit naive, but, you know, I think that's what keeps driving me as a human and and that you know every day is an interesting day that has a connection and interesting connections with people and interesting ideas and um yeah so let's back it up a bit more I think if we can I don't know you know it'd be I'd like it's been a long time since I've been to ours electronic about yeah but the theme is panic you know is there much panic going on or not or is it just you know are people feeling panicked or is it just like you know having a nice strudel and a coffee in the morning. Well, the good thing about Flynn is Flynn deflates the power of AI, right? Flynn is a clown. Flynn is non-threatening. And so what we're seeing around us is really scary stuff in which, you know, lead the conference today with Trump and the big three, right? That's scary. And Flynn allows us to feel that they're silly and laugh at them and that Flynn is somehow a loser, right? And that is an emotional function. So I think like for me, if we added that back to digital art at this point, we'd be, that's what we got to do. That's what we have to do. Like we have to add feelings, right? And feelings can also be funny you know to to laugh at them or to grieve or all these things and to stop um the the innovation capital next new sneakers you know and gotta buy more because they're so badly made or whatever but that's what's happened with tech so yeah that's what i think is the optimistic one quick thing and then the question uh. The most surprising and speaking about emotions and feeling and that was for me the most telling about humans, when the two created Flynn and we started speaking about it, they very quickly said they fear that Flynn would get cyber mobbed. Yeah, cyber bullied. Yeah, cyber bullied. And I was like, why? It it's an AI it's technology. Why would anyone cyber bully an AI that to me made no sense? But then you said people really called Flynn and told Flynn that they're not human Not real. Yeah, not real and not yeah that well that was yeah, I just wanted to share that And then they got really sad. So again like Yeah, but there's a question and it's the last. So again, like emotions. Yeah. But there's a question. And it's the last one. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. I had a question for Claudia. And I wrote it down. So AI aside, when we work in the crypto space, right? NFT or digital collectibles or internet art, as some people call it. Are we just shilling a company's name and an economic industry like Ethereum or Teslos or Bitcoin with ordinals? Or the AI companies for this matter that give us these platforms? Or is it a new palette to paint with, right? Is it the metadata and the code that we use, is that the real palette? Or is it these.eth that I use, or these companies that end up being, because your question, what you touched on really made sense to me. Is it a trap? Is there a way around it? What do you think? Well, I think there's a way around it. Well, first of all, there's problems in everything. The art market, the speculative art market for real art, that is very problematic and creates a lot of the same problems but in a different way but the solution is it's not there are no good mediums and bad mediums i mean oil paint is toxic turpentine will kill you. And so basically the solution is if you can make art out of it. I mean period. If you can make art out of it which is the thing that moves people, makes them want to connect in some ways, then you're not chilling. Because you made art, right? Thank you. And I would like to end this panel with celebrating Claudia Hart again. And I would like to share a quick anecdote. An artist duo named Operator and I were working on an NFT project and it was about selling NFTs. I won't go into detail here. And we asked Claudia to contribute and she said no. And we were like, why? And she was basically the and she said no. And we were like, why? And she was basically the only person saying no. And we were like, why? And we invited 100 artists. And Claudia Hart said no. And for us, that was the most important artist we wanted to have, right? So we went back, why? And then she said, no one would buy my NFT. And by the way, we were speaking about NFT for $200. So that should not be too difficult to sell. And she was like, no. And then we really had to convince her and A couple of years later is the second Claudia Hart is the second highest female artist on the Tezos blockchain So well, I only did it because operator bought the piece Yes, you could have left that part out Yeah, we then convinced her by saying, we buy the piece. But we could have easily sold it. But no, Claudia, I mean, that's the good thing about NFTs, right? Women artists often hadn't had such a big chance on the art market. Digital artists didn't have a chance. Also, Juliana said they never could really sell their work. And suddenly, my students sold a lot of NFTs. How much? How much? How many? I don't know. I didn't check. I think for like 20,000 Tezos or so something by now. So I think that's not too bad. So not wanting to shill any blockchain we work with. That's Tezos, by the way. But I think, and that's what I would like to end with, maybe it's an idea to look at the, yeah, that's the role of artists, right? To point out dangers for new technology. That's why artists are always first, and that's why we can turn to artists and learn from them. But then also we can learn from them what the positive sides can be about technology and NFTs make also a lot of things possible, same like AI, because now we have a fun AI student. Thank you, everybody, for coming. Thank you, Juliana, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Grab a drink, have some refreshments. Drink for free. Just buy some Ingeborg. I just met you two in Cologne. Oh, yes. Please have a drink there for free and just enjoy the museum and have a good Ars Electronica. you you you