We are really happy to have Amélie Neal here in Lindt and in the lab. So we are really proud to continue this collaboration with Alter-Wahlhof and the Autosonics project. As you know, we are talking a lot about this. We've been running this for almost a year, for building these accessible multi-channel venues. You've seen the loudspeakers near him, here hanging. Basically, if you have not visited yet, Alta Bauhof in Ottenstein, you should go visit, because it's really a great experience to listen to a concert, or even in the future, why not, produce an award there, or play your music at the end. I think, yeah, this is, yeah, ourselves in the streaming, I will admit. So, Amelie is here also because, well, she's an artist in residence this week, there in Nottingham. We are having a concert also with more or less, well, let's see, what come out after a week of you working in Nottingham on Saturday. I think it's around 5 or later. I think it's going to be in the evening. In the evening? As you want. Okay. It's final. Yeah, it's the good thing of making this nicely, nice project that will stay tuned for the announcements. We will share it with you. But basically, you know, the site is 10 kilometers from here, up in the Danube, so you can go and enjoy a little bit of the sun. I think it's going to be sunny for your presentation. Wow. So I think, well, just last words about Amelie. I don't want to resume your career. Really interesting work on the one hand, working with multichannel sound, and on the other, really touching really a lot of different aesthetics as well. And I think today you're going to tell us a little bit about what you have done in the past, and maybe also about these influences or these things you're going to do during this week. So thanks for coming and really a small applause maybe. Thank you. Do I need to talk to the mic? It's for the stream, the live stream. Yeah, no problem. Okay. Thank you for welcoming me here at Tangible Music Lab and in Nottenheim in the super studio, Autosonic Studio. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. So because I'm doing an artistic residency with Autosonics, and it's more about sound specialization, I will introduce myself more through my sound specialization works, but also I will talk a bit about my music at the end. So I'm French. My name is Amélie Nils. I come from Paris. As you know, French people don't really know how to speak English. So I'm really sorry if you don't understand the things I say. You can just ask me. I will try to be as clear as possible. Okay, so I started to be interested by electronic music and sound specialization at the same time, actually. Because before I was more playing rock music and jazz as a singer and a drummer. But when I started to listen to electronic music, I was hearing those little sounds which were not instruments, moving from a speaker to another in stereo, and I was like, what is that? I was 15, 16 years old, and so I really, I was really, I was directly interested by that, attracted by this thing, this magical thing, for me it was magical to hear that. We were in 2006, so now maybe it's completely normal, but for me it was really unusual. And so, yeah, this is how I started to get into electronic music and sound specialization at the same time. So during my studies at the University of Paris 8, I did some researches about sound specialization in music, in electronic music. And so I did a master thesis, this is how we say. I did a master thesis, this is how we say. I did two, actually, under the direction of Anne Cedes from CICM. It's a researching center for sound space in Paris. And Alain Bonardi from IRCAM. Maybe you know IRCAM in Paris. And also, he works also in CICM. So you can find my master thesis online, but they're in French. I don't know if you can understand French. But I can just tell you a little, little, little sum up just what I was doing at this time. So my first thesis, the title is translated in English, The Specialization of Electronic Music in View of the Composition Process. I was doing a sum up of what has already been done in music and space. I mean, like a little history of space music. And then I was really getting into all the sound space reproduction techniques like ambisonics, WFSFS VBAP, binaural I don't know if you are familiar or not with all these things but I was talking about that and also about integrating this space dimension into composition because I'm more an artist than a scientist even if I did also science studies a bit. So I was like, when you compose, when do you think of integrating this dimension? Before? Like it's really the concept is the audio space, what I'm going to do with that. or do you work at the same time like you compose and you You start to write also Some specialization at the same time or is it just at the end like I've done Everything and maybe I will enhance my music with some special effects. So I was really talking about that in this first thesis. And then the specialization of the electronic music from the listener's point of view, perception, immersion, special audio concert. So I was more focusing on the perceptual, how the human beings understand space, how we listen to it, how we understand space through sound. And I was talking about the notion of immersion because it is still really famous. You can see this everywhere, immersive, immersion. And so I was like trying to define it in this thesis. And also I organized a special audio concert during my last year at the university, mixing many different special audio reproduction techniques. At the same time, WFS, Ambisonics, just sending also through channels, directly through. It was a big mess. I mean, technical, but it it worked and I used this concert I was also performing and some other artists and I used this concert as a I tried to to to to find some conclusion for my my master but I also had many questions at the end but it's normal we are researching so because I was asking the audience also the point of view they had a little forum to feel and they could send me emails also to to tell me what they heard what they felt during this concert so this is what I was doing at the university. And I finished. I was graduated in 2018. I just put some tools that I used that I'm still using maybe. Maybe you know some of them. If you have questions, you can ask me. So now I'm more using the Spat Revolution from Flux because I have a free license. And it's really easy also to decode for many, many systems. Like you can work in binaural in your place. You can then go in a small concert place where they only have eight speakers. Then you can go to another space where they have a dome, and you can keep your mix, we can say, because you just have to decode it. It's quite easy, but, okay, it works. It doesn't work. It depends. But, yeah, it's quite easy to use also. And now, for example, I'm trying, I'm rediscovering also the IAM plugins, thanks to Manu and at Alta above. And I'm really happy to work with it also because with those plugins. Because I don't remember if I had already worked with this. So I'm all the time willing to try new things. So it's quite cool. So if you have a workflow, a special workflow, we can discuss about that later. I would be glad to hear that. And in general, I can say that I have an aesthetic approach of specialization in music, I mean, rather than technical, because actually I don't really care about the tools, and that's why I can change also, and I'm glad to try new things. to try new things. I want music and space to mix well. I don't want to do something like I will do timbrel specialization frequency. I mean, if it doesn't sound at the end, I mean, I will not use it. Or here in Ottenheim, I'm really glad because we have two layers of speaker. We have a dome. No, a sphere. Sorry, I would say like that. It's more sphere. And then further, we have an hemisphere. And so we have two layers of speaker. And it's the first time I work with this kind of system. So I'm really happy to try things and I will not be stopped like because we were talking about that yesterday if there are some phasing problems of stuff if it suits the music why not I mean I don't care it's more yeah what we will listen at the end for me is more important than the technical stuff and how do I do it and yeah so that's why I'm talking more about aesthetic approach if it's the right expression yeah no it's the same thing we have some photos yeah it's the same thing. We have some photos. Yeah, it's better than texts. So, I will talk a little bit about what I did also with some specialization, project where I worked. So the first two photos, it's an auditorium and actually it's the modelisation on the left corner, it's a modelisation of this concert I did in 2017 when I was at the university, this concert I organised. So it was in an auditorium, you can see the normal, the way it is basically with only eight speakers, four and four on the two sides. And we added speakers. So it was like 20, 21 speakers, I think, plus two sub subwoofers to surround, to really surround the audience. And because the challenge was that we were using the tools from the university, which are the HOA library developed in MaxMSP, HOA for high order ambisonics. the WFS, but it's not the proper WFS that they do sometimes at IRCAM with 300 speakers and stuff. No, it's a WFS from Sonic Emotion. They're from Switzerland, I think. But they were also working in France. And so basically it to work with few speakers they say we can start from four speakers didn't try so but so that's why we needed many speakers many like 20 so yeah it was a quite challenging concert because we're mixing many, many techniques and stuff like that. But at the end, it worked very well. So I was quite happy with that. For the anecdote, because I organize also events, and so I was taking this concept, but more mobile, because this is not really mobile with 20 speakers, WFS, ambisonics, and stuff. So I was with some other friends. We started to, we wanted to organize a special audio concert more often in many different places. a special audio concert more often in many different places and we tried at La Gaiete Lyrique which is a famous place in Paris, very open for new media and stuff like that and it was in 2018 and they were really thrilled to frighten I mean to do stuff like that even Even if it was with famous, because I know so famous artists like techno producers or stuff like that, they would be people, but no, they were afraid of taking time to install the system for the rehearsal and then to uninstall the system. So I don't know how is it here, but in France and Paris it's still difficult to do stuff like that. Because it's big institutions and for them it's too complicated and so we did just few concerts but in small in small rooms like you take a square room and you put the speakers and you do whatever you want but to go into the news which are already established and stuff it's very difficult in France and And for the anecdote, after COVID in 2020, they started, they did the first concert at this place where I tried three years ago. They did the first special, specialized concert with four speakers, like four, maybe an audience of 600, 700 people with four speakers. So, yeah, they are starting to do something. But, yeah, it doesn't really work for now. Anyway, I have also worked in a planetarium, a dome. You know planetarium? Yes. This is the photo. Okay, we don't really see, actually. But it's fine. There is nothing to see. It was a collaborative audiovisual piece, but in planetarium, it's just 7.1. So, I mean, seven speakers, one subwoofer. So it's not really crazy, but it does work. And it's nice also to experiment with that, with visual. It was a really nice experience. It was in Lyon, in France with AADN, it's an electronic music association, I would say collective in Lyon. I also did something for the Scripto box. It's a box of 20 speakers. So it's four screens. So the video is projected all around the audience. And there are a cube of, there is a cube of speakers also. So I did a small piece for that, for this system. I had to do something bigger with a super visual artist. I love Alexandra Radulescu I work with her but because of COVID we didn't manage to do it and now we don't have money for that so I didn't do it at the end and this is what I'm I will maybe work with this this week this is what I was also saying to Manu, because I have a piece which lasts 30 minutes, which was really made to work with space, with audio space. So I want to try stuff here in Ottenheim. Yes, I could tell you more about ScriptoBox if you have questions, maybe at the end. And also, yeah, I do, this is an example of field recording with the ambiosanizer. I'm not doing promotion, I mean, use whatever you want. This is in Galicia, in space, in Spain. I was working on an artistic documentary, I would say, about wild horses living in Galicia, in Spain. And every year during three days all the village are taking all the horses down to the arena to the arena and they put them in the arena, it's crowded and they jump on them and they get their hair and stuff like that. It's an experience, kind of weird, but we were trying to understand why and stuff like that. So it's a documentary about that. And so I was doing ambisonic field recording for this documentary. That's why I put the little photo. So this was a little bit about what I do, what I can do with sound specialization. But I'm also sharing with you my, I'm sharing with you in general my experience and my questions also. And if you have ideas, answers, we can talk about it later. But there is also this thing, working for an artist, and I don't say with an artist, because it's really, it's important to difference. So I was working a lot with Molecule, who is a famous electronic producer, French producer, doing more techno, I would say techno music. And so he has a tour, which is called Acoustmatic 360. And he's touring with El Acoustics System, Elisa, and I was working with him and with Hervé Desjardins, who is... So, Molecule is the guy with the cap, and Hervé Desjardins, the guy from Radio France, maybe you have already heard of it, who is controlling life, how the music of Molecule will go through these speakers. So it's 12 speakers. The ELISA system, it's really particular. Everything is really well calibrated and stuff like that. Very expensive also, but it's a partnership. And so you have 12 speakers around the audience. And so I was working with them. So you have really the musician and the sound engineer, space sound engineer. I don't know. Yeah. And the sound engineer, space sound engineer. I don't know. Yeah. And this is what also I was doing with Molecule because I also worked with him in other projects, like in April 2019 for the INA Sound Festival in Paris, where I was doing his live specialization of his music on the, I don't remember, 15 speakers, something like that. So he was really in the middle playing his music. And me, I was with the sound engineers, actually. And just, not at all in the middle, but I had to listen to it and to what I was doing anyway. How's the process there? Do you go through a show and you say, okay, this sound should be like being there? Or is it more like that you also choose where to place it somehow? Okay, it's both actually. So it's like a collaboration, I could say. But yeah, because we were rehearsing in studio before. So yeah, he was playing and I was trying stuff. So there were my ideas, but also when he was not okay or when he wanted something precise, he was telling me, yes, at this moment, I want this sound everywhere or I want it to rotate, or I don't know what, and I have to do it, because it's his music also, but for the rest, he says, do whatever you want, you know better. But yes, he can also give ideas, and yeah, we were talking. Yes. And so, yeah, I did that. And also, I did the binaural creation of a sound installation named Pandora. So it's a little photo. Actually, the people are flying on the floor with headphones under a light. So everybody has this light. It's a Pandora star light. It's a, I don't remember the name of the guy who is creating these light, this kind of lights, but you have, your eyes are closed and you see like a kaleidoscope, you know, you see shapes, colors and stuff like that. So it's like a meditative experience. People are lying with their eyes closed and they were listening to Molecule's music. So he was not doing techno at this time. It was more like ambient style, drone. It was more like ambient style drone. And so I did the binaural creation for this. So this is just an example working with this, with Molecule because we worked on different projects. And this is how, this is where I'm still thinking of that. These are my questions, I don't know, we can talk. So I'm not really, I don't, me as an artist, I prefer do everything. I have, because I'm also used to work with space and that's why maybe I want to do everything and and it's part of my composition also I mean space to integrate this dimension but for the other artists who are just not familiar to it yeah it's kind of normal that they have to work with a sound engineer who are going to do it for them. I'm just wondering sometimes if it's really worth it, if it works, because the space sound engineer sometimes is completely disconnected from the music. the music from the... So he will do, the person will do like basic things maybe, like, which can be good also, but like, okay, I will just put your sound here and here. This one, it will rotate, and this one, it will be everywhere, and that's all, and we will stay like that, just for the sound to be diffused, to be, yeah. So yeah, I'm asking me, you, sometimes, some question. I don't have any answer, but it's still part of my research, and because I do also radio podcasts, these are the things I like to ask to artists, to sound engineers, and to the audience also. What do they think of that? How do they feel when they go to a concert where the artist and the sound engineer are really not the same person? Is it different than you go to a concert where the artist did everything? I mean is it more immersive if the artist does everything? I don't know. I don't have any really answer. I don't have an answer. Yeah does it mean that some specialization is just an effect to enhance music? This is what I'm afraid of sometimes. Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Oh, yeah, and I added interprétation acoustmatique. Do you know that? I don't know, it's really French this thing, you know, acoustic music with, you know, which is orchestra of speakers so like an orchestra with instruments you have different speakers, like different manufacturers like you have many different speakers it can be 40 speakers, everywhere placed, look in the direction of the wall, I mean in many directions for... it gives many possibilities to the sound and space. It's very, it's quite nice to go to this kind of concert. And the people who are working with this system, Acusmonium, they developed a real institution which is called Interpretation Acoustmatique, so Acoustmatic Interpretation. So you can see three mixing consoles here going to all the speakers. And this is an extreme example. There are three mixing consoles for three different interpreters, three different people who are specializing real-time the music and most of the time it's a stereo wave that they are sending through all the speakers. And so here, for example, Alcom and Motu are two companies who own two different Accusmonium, and they are developing that concert with three interpreters every time. And so it's a real thing. Like we don't care who is the artist or the thing is that we just take a stereo, we just take a stereo wave and we, and we diffuse it through the, this orchestra of speakers. So, and, and this is quite good, but the interprets and the artists are disconnected, but it works. So it's a recording. It can be live also. They Yeah, they are doing. But it's mainly like 75% it's a fixed media, it's just a file, you know, a WAV file. Yeah. And so the artist can be here or not, it doesn't matter. The most important is how you will diffuse the sound through the speakers. And so they are good interprets and bad also, you know? It's like, yeah. So yes. Okay, but it works. So yeah. I'm just sending ideas like of what I'm thinking of and what does exist oops yeah transmission it's I don't know if it's a good term yeah so talking about or educates people about special audio I used to work with children and elderly people also. So we had some workshop with a friend. It's us on the photo. We were going to libraries in the countryside in France, going to see children and elderly people who don't really have a connection to music and culture, like there is not even cinema or theater in the villages, and we were going to the Mediatek, where they sell books, and it's the same word. I translate, I use French words so a lot so I'm sorry so we were going to those places or even to the school to schools also to to reach them and to introduce them to electronic music and to some specialization through voice, most of all, because we were recording their voice and also the voice of old people. And they were reading old fairy tale from maybe the village. we were looking for all the east stories and working through with voice is very nice very nice because everybody understands it it's something really intimate and so we were transforming the sound we were oh yeah it was not about only about sound specialization. It was also about sound transformation. And so this works very well with children. And so, yeah, every time we were bringing eight speakers to them. So maybe you see a little bit. They were just sitting in the middle. And so they were listening to music, and then they were practicing with joysticks or stuff like that, with really simple things. But yeah, they were really happy to do that, and at the end, we did some sound installations with them. sound installations with them. So, yeah, it's a way to teach or to introduce people to spatial audio. Also through radio podcast, I was saying it before, this is what I do. Like I did also a documentary about this Acoustmatic 360 tour I did with Molecule and Hervé Desjardins. This project I was talking about. I was doing a documentary about that. And of course, we can also develop easy and funny tools. I don't do it, but my friend was doing it, who was working with me, and you also do it, I think. And this is cool. For people to manipulate very easily and in a funny way, space. So this is what I called democratization. So this is cool, it democratization. So this is cool. It has good and bad also maybe thing because now for the reason I was saying before, like it can be just an effect. Space can be just an effect because we can be just disconnected from this. Like we don't know what is what does it really means uh sound space but because everybody does it we will do it so this is maybe the bad side but i think there are more um positive things from it and it's cool to keep on doing it and talk about it so yeah I'm writing some positive things here producing immersive content Ola it's a strange sentence is also a way to have a better way of listening to music not too loud and well balanced yes because anyway because anyway, at the end, everybody does immersive sounds, even if it's not really interesting in terms of sound specialization, it can be a good solution, maybe, to have a better way to listen to music. Because when you have a large audience with stereo speakers, we all know that we only hear the left side or the right side if we are more on the left or more on the right. So it's a better way to listen to music during performances to avoid maybe some acoustic problems also, and so to do concerts in many, many different venues more easily, and maybe to help reducing hearing loss problems. I know there is a French association working on that, because they say that now the teenagers are starting to lose some... Hearing loss is a real problem, and so maybe, I don't know if it can solve it, but it can diminish it, because we don't need to have a very loud volume, actually, when we are using many speakers, because we have just a better listening. So we don't need to push too much the volume. So it's cool. So these are all the things I'm working with and thinking and just sharing you my thoughts. And, yep. things I'm working with and thinking and just sharing you my thoughts and yep and um maybe to to finish I can talk also about my music uh which is more uh I say I don't like asking people and when they ask me also what do you do what kind What kind of music do you do? It's so hard to describe, but I would say experimental electronic music, which means many things, of course. I will add that it is vocal, that I use field recording, and we have rock and beats, polyrhythms, I don't know, sound textures. I'm really influenced by electronic music, music concrete and jazz, because this is my background, jazz music. And I think sound specialization, even if I do stereo tracks, it's really an influence because the way I think music is really like a little environment all the time. Like I released an EP last year at the end of the year and so for me each track is like an environment, a sound environment even if it's in stereo oh and it's important to say that sound specialization doesn't mean multi-channel it's also in stereo and even in mono of course because sound is physical and it's space anyway so yeah for me I don't know it's really everything's connected all the time I build little environments with my music, with sound textures. I like to be free. This is, everybody wants to be free. I mean, I don't want, I can do songs, but it's not a typical song. I mean, I like to go out of the rules. I don't care of the sound materials, of the form, the metrics. I mean, I'm free. It's not because I start with a 4x4 120 BPM that I will finish it like that or stuff like that. So, yeah. I'm looking for freedom through music because, yeah, we have to be free somewhere. So, we're not in music. Anyway. So, yeah. So, I do live performances, stereo live performances. I will precise, even if I would love to do again immersive performances, but it's not so easy to find venues which offers this possibility. this possibility. So I'm working on it and if I have a proposition I will say yes. And also I will try to organize by myself. I will keep on organizing events because we need to do it. And yeah. So maybe I forgot many things. I don't know. If you want to ask me something, and me, I would think if I want to add something. Oh, we can listen to, I don't know. We can listen to a track. If you don't know what I do, actually, we can listen to a track from my EP. It's different from what I do, for example, in Autentheim, because it's really not the same when I do live performances or when I do sound installations. It's more like sound art, as we can say, what I'm doing now in Autentheim. But yeah, anyway, it's me, so it can't be. So yeah, I don't know. We can listen to this track, To Minore Ti Savies. It's in Greek. It's a traditional Greek song because I speak Greek maybe better than English so it's a it's a traditional Greek song that I really transformed a rear and rearranged. And what I would like maybe you to listen to it, because I was talking before about sound environments. So you will tell me at the end what you think, but I think it's really, it's a good example. Even if I don't use field recording in this track, that's why also I want you to listen to it, because I don't use field recording. this track. That's why also I want you to listen to it, because I don't use field recording. So when I say sound environment, doesn't mean that I use sounds from the nature, or I also do it. But this, it was a record made with real instruments, actually, like harp and, don't remember, harp and guitar, I think. Yes, and so I was building textures with it. And yeah, so. Υπότιτλοι AUTHORWAVE Για σένα ναι, είναι γραμμένο από το κλάμα κάποιας ψυχής Για σένα ναι, είναι γραμμένο In manet inerra meno, ad hoc clama capias psychis.... Luce mara fies unum se Ex sed numeri che batem Quies vis subit tu te negam I sublima, totem e non mea, prostus est inissum, sedia moria. Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the Ode to the CINEMATIC MUSIC © transcript Emily Beynon I love constricting and deconstructing things. Thank you. deconstructing things. So if you have any questions. One question since you shared some material here with the links and stuff. Do you also have any place where we could find ambisonic records? Do you share them? No. Ambisonic records? No. It's true. It's true that no. Yep. Just don't like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And the recordings there, is that binaural stuff? Which one? Oh yeah, no, this is my EP, it's just stereo. No, oh yeah, I was doing, basically I should have done, I started to mix all the tracks in binaural, but with the label, anyway, it was not manageable to, because I really wanted to have all the tracks in stereo and all the tracks in binaural, I really wanted to have all the tracks in stereo and all the tracks in my neural, I don't know, but because of the time we didn't manage to do it, so, but next time I think so. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Maybe it would be nice if we try to answer your questions. Oh. Discuss about them. Or maybe not. Yeah. Sure. What? There is here and this. I don't know. I don't know what you are doing. So actually, I don't know if you're familiar to all these things. But any ideas would be. Any experience? I think the second question is impossible question to pose. It's like somehow a paradox in itself. It's like on the first hand, from which point this question is posed. I mean, from your perspective and practice, of course, but in general, I think it's unthinkable, unanswerable question. Of course. It is more rhetorical. I mean, it's... We're not here to answer to everything. Yeah, yeah, sure. Since you said the space is dependent on the room, like the sound is dependent on the space where it's played. Also, yes. It's bonding around in this space. So there is some necessity probably if you want to come without, like you perceive it, which is your only control you have, maybe? Yeah. What you perceive and how it's perceived. So maybe it's important if you go more deep, or if we think deep about sound spaces. Of course. And how to place this speakers, of course. I told you. Get the. Yeah. And the artist doesn't need to do everything anyway. And also, we should be also acoustic engineers. But we're not. I mean, some are, but we're not I mean some are but some are not so anyway we're not sharing the process also yes you wanted to say something man for me it's the first time that I hear this term sound space engineer because yes a job that does not really exist yes Yes. But I found myself in exactly that position during the project and when a band came to play, it was at the festival and before that at another occasion. And I also was not satisfied with the situation because, okay, we are adding something to the music and it works somehow but it was it's it's just not uh this this cannot be the end yes of of the whole process so we would both both times i thought we would need just more time and really take it apart and rebuild it and then something else would be the output ideally. So this job description is as you said a bit problematic. Yes maybe. It's disconnected from creation. Maybe it is something that is just necessary for big productions when you split up so many things. But usually I would agree that it's better to just combine everything into one process. Why not? Everything is possible, so you felt it also. But I think it's because we see it in an artistic way and when we are a sound space engineer, as I like to call it, yeah, there is no creation at all. So maybe that's why it's a bit frustrated. But maybe only artists, I think, and I think only artists can do that. I mean, for other artists, I think, and I think only artists can do that, I mean, for other artists, because the sound engineers are not really into that. And that's why also a lot of artists are doing this now. I don't know, for me in France it's really common now, that's why I say sound space engineer like that, because we really see it. And it's more artists who are doing that for others yeah because sound engineers they just do what they know and they don't try something else but now they are starting to to do it also sorry yeah i think it's interesting because if we discuss it like that the sound is disconnected from the spatial properties right i mean if we discuss it like that, the sound is disconnected from the spatial properties, right? I mean, if we think of from an instrumental side again, and maybe an instrument where the performer has immediate control over the spatial effect, I would still call it effect then, but spatial positioning or movement or whatever, then we would not even discuss it. But normally, it's still decoupled. You have the sound, and then you can give the sound some spatial properties, movements, whatever. Exactly. But if you would immediately have an instrument that the performer plays with the spatial properties of sound, then this discussion wouldn't even take place, because then it would be part of the sound. True. This could be, yeah. This could be a solution to, yeah. Yeah, not a solution necessary, but. No, but an option anyway to. But you could still compose and spatialize it at the same time. I'm not sure if you really need an instrument for that. It's the same with all effects and inputs and all the materials that you use. If you just take it at the same time, then it is somehow integrated. And the compositional part would be interesting because it is from a traditional musical perspective because that's, of course, also not part of the typical composition. Of course, you can have stuff there, but... But is there a difference between live music, played live, and as soon as you record it, you need to lose that in it, or no? Is there some high-end technical stuff that you can... I'm not very educated in music, but live music is... I don't know, it has always a really deep impact on me. And once you record it and replay it, I don't know, it loses on the way to me. And then there comes your specialization into placing the... That's what I see in this whole field. That you actually have approximately the life feeling. Mm-hmm. The aim. Yeah. It just came to my mind. Mm-hmm. It's nothing. Of course. Interesting. Yeah. You wanted to say something? No. No. Maybe I can share, for example, the anecdote of this performance of Robert Henke. We have this album, 5.1. I think it was 2017, something like that, and playing it in Berghain. And then, obviously, there were four, and then they added one more. And basically, yeah, the thing is that in Berghain, when you are really close to one speaker, you just listen to that speaker, that channel. Obviously you have to be really in the sweet spot of Berghain, I don't know if even that exists for obvious reasons. this kind of, yeah, not experiments, but tryouts to venues which are not really adapted, finally it doesn't matter. And finally it was not so important, we were dancing like hell and it was great, but yeah, the artist finally was not doing what Robert was not doing what he wanted. And that happened at many, many venues. venues so at the end are we creating a niche of you know music for specific architectural spaces does it really make sense i don't know at least i think at the end time if behind could improve the specialization that could be possible probably but yeah but at the same time you also that you run a PA system, you know, that we have four corners, no? I think the whole system, it always depends on what the room and the whole situation brings with it. Because if you think about the archive, I mean, I think the thing what they do is trying to overplay the reverb of the room, and that makes everything quite complicated. And if everything is dry enough, you can add something too. Yeah. Otherwise it's a battle of how loud can I... Do I have to be more than the river, the natural river of the room? But then you have also a very special characteristic of your club to have this effect? Yeah, well, and the second thing is that, yeah, we did that, that many artists are not really, they feel that they don't have the tools, no? Yeah. To do it, and then, yeah, if you are on tour, you're not gonna invest much time on these things, so I don't know. I think there is this educational part i think we could could be changed somehow yeah with your initiatives and which is maybe like like manuals and so on because i know like artists who are usually not playing in those formats they have the opportunity so i think there's a little bit of a critical mass at some moment. Yeah. There will be more brain in us adequate to that. Sure. Isn't there a general problem that if you want the spatial effect to actually work, then you need a room which is, I mean, the sweet spot will never be close to the speakers, obviously, because of the energy of the sound so you always need some distance to the speaker system so you need big venues and you can only cover a certain part of them if you want that to work But with a fifth order system and proper placement and proper speakers the sweet spot can be quite huge. In that I totally agree with you that even for not ambisonics content, even for a stereo file sometimes, the perception is more balanced with such a system. So there are those, Matthias Frankschau does those diagrams where with the area where you can have a directional precision of 10 degrees, and this grows with the order of the system, and it's really quite decent at some point. That's cool, thank you so much for participating also let's continue the the talk uh the kitchen thanks to thanks to you and also thanks to the people uh yes the watchers and the live stream we have a few already so thanks a lot and then see you in the next one